Well, since I haven't been able to decide what to build yet (too many choices and variables!) I decided to lash together a pair of Dayton BR-1's in the interim purely for entertainment value - besides I figured the exercise would provide some point of reference since there are so many versions of the Dayton variants around and I could compare the results to other's comments just to see what all the "buzz" is about.
Pretty easy - a few hours - and only a measly US$140 or so - how can you go wrong? It was enjoyable - and here are my impressions:
Low end - Basically, not very tight - I'd describe it as somewhat "flabby" (perhaps owing to the reflex alignment and trying to push too low?)..
Mids - Really not much there - lacking in any real detail or definition...
Highs - Just a bit too laid back and "soft" for my tastes - sort of "droopy" all in all...
Wow - this sounds exactly like a description of my ex-wife!!!
- but I digress... Actually, I think they're great for what they cost (i.e. next to nothing) - but they're not for my tastes. Mind you, I'm coming from an opposite extreme. My idea of an entertaining experience for a small (i.e. 10' x 12' room) was based on using some Yamaha NS-10s for a few years - admittedly "extreme" in most people's view...
Anyway, it was fun and they'll make a great gift for someone. I was going to experiment with adding an active crossover scheme and some additional EQ - but hardly seems worth it except for possible educational value, but I doubt the result would be worth the effort.
So, I'm on to the next thing. Thoughts are to build a 3-way sealed using Vifa components - e.g. 7" Mid/Bass, 3" Mid, Tweeter - all with active xovers (target ~300 and 3000Hz) and whatever additional EQ/notches/tweeking may be required as the next step on this journey. I like the sound of sealed alignments, especially the perceived "punch" and insist on alot of clarity in the mid and upper ranges (listening to lots of acoustic material at relatively low volume). If anyone has any advice or pointers to similar setups I'd be grateful...
I'm sure there are going to be quite a few of these "experimental" (i.e. "gift") systems built along the way... That's part of the "fun", right....
Bill
Pretty easy - a few hours - and only a measly US$140 or so - how can you go wrong? It was enjoyable - and here are my impressions:
Low end - Basically, not very tight - I'd describe it as somewhat "flabby" (perhaps owing to the reflex alignment and trying to push too low?)..
Mids - Really not much there - lacking in any real detail or definition...
Highs - Just a bit too laid back and "soft" for my tastes - sort of "droopy" all in all...
Wow - this sounds exactly like a description of my ex-wife!!!
- but I digress... Actually, I think they're great for what they cost (i.e. next to nothing) - but they're not for my tastes. Mind you, I'm coming from an opposite extreme. My idea of an entertaining experience for a small (i.e. 10' x 12' room) was based on using some Yamaha NS-10s for a few years - admittedly "extreme" in most people's view... Anyway, it was fun and they'll make a great gift for someone. I was going to experiment with adding an active crossover scheme and some additional EQ - but hardly seems worth it except for possible educational value, but I doubt the result would be worth the effort.
So, I'm on to the next thing. Thoughts are to build a 3-way sealed using Vifa components - e.g. 7" Mid/Bass, 3" Mid, Tweeter - all with active xovers (target ~300 and 3000Hz) and whatever additional EQ/notches/tweeking may be required as the next step on this journey. I like the sound of sealed alignments, especially the perceived "punch" and insist on alot of clarity in the mid and upper ranges (listening to lots of acoustic material at relatively low volume). If anyone has any advice or pointers to similar setups I'd be grateful...
I'm sure there are going to be quite a few of these "experimental" (i.e. "gift") systems built along the way... That's part of the "fun", right....
Bill
sreten said:Well I agree - comparing to NS-10's is pointless,
and its not the Ns-10's that are right,
I assume that you're not a fan of the NS-10s then? (And I realize that there are MANY who are not)...
However, if you have "tin ears" (as I do), the NS-10s will certainly allow you to hear things you couldn't otherwise (even if many others don't WANT to hear such things).
Any suggestions for something existing that would provide some detail and mid-range clarity without breaking the bank? (I looked at the Dayton dome mid-range, for example, and - what's with that FS?!! - looks horrible). On the other hand, the Vifa 3" dome mid looked fairly reasonable...
Regards,
Bill
NS-10's had a poorly designed crossover that gave a giant peak in the midrange....
A really funny page on the NS-10M (improved version) at:
http://www.bobhodas.com/tissue.html
No wonder you think the BR-1's have no midrange.
There is a mod out there that takes care of the midrange peak, and after applying it I am told the NS-10 is a first rate speaker, albeit one with no bass.
A really funny page on the NS-10M (improved version) at:
http://www.bobhodas.com/tissue.html
No wonder you think the BR-1's have no midrange.
There is a mod out there that takes care of the midrange peak, and after applying it I am told the NS-10 is a first rate speaker, albeit one with no bass.
P.S. Please bear in mind that I'm talking about fairly low levels for listening - Right now I'm living in a WW-2 era rowhouse with poor insulation and I swear I can hear the neighbor's cat sneeze on an average day. So, I'm concerned with levels well under 100 dB SPL - probably more like 75 or so.
Maybe this should be moved to a thread discussing headphones???!..
Anyway, the original question stands - any pointers to successful 3-way (or improved midrange) 2-way designs?
Thanks,
Bill
Maybe this should be moved to a thread discussing headphones???!..
Anyway, the original question stands - any pointers to successful 3-way (or improved midrange) 2-way designs?
Thanks,
Bill
netgeek said:
I assume that you're not a fan of the NS-10s then? (And I realize that there are MANY who are not)...
However, if you have "tin ears" (as I do), the NS-10s will certainly allow you to hear things you couldn't otherwise (even if many others don't WANT to hear such things).
Regards,
Bill
You are correct, but the Ns-10's have some strengths used
as nearfield recording monitors (with the tissue "upgrade").
Real resolution comes from the total system, not exaggerated
midrange, so I couldn't possibly reccommend OTT midrange
speakers, but Tannoy dual concentrics generally do the job.
sreten.
Have you considered modifying the BR-1's?
You might be able to boost the xo region by paralleling caps on the tweeter cap to reduce the tweeter xo frequency (careful!), or by reducing the woofer inductor value to increase the woofer xo frequency. If the tweeter has an L-pad you could reduce the series value somewhat to bring up the highs.
Note that the BR-1 is probably 10dB less sensitive than the NS-10, which would cause many of the attributes you state if you aren't listening at the same volume.....
For headphones with a slightly boosted midrange - check out the Sony MDR-7506 (or MDRV6 - discontinued).
You might be able to boost the xo region by paralleling caps on the tweeter cap to reduce the tweeter xo frequency (careful!), or by reducing the woofer inductor value to increase the woofer xo frequency. If the tweeter has an L-pad you could reduce the series value somewhat to bring up the highs.
Note that the BR-1 is probably 10dB less sensitive than the NS-10, which would cause many of the attributes you state if you aren't listening at the same volume.....
For headphones with a slightly boosted midrange - check out the Sony MDR-7506 (or MDRV6 - discontinued).
Ron E said:NS-10's had a poorly designed crossover that gave a giant peak in the midrange....
A really funny page on the NS-10M (improved version) at:
http://www.bobhodas.com/tissue.html
No wonder you think the BR-1's have no midrange.
There is a mod out there that takes care of the midrange peak, and after applying it I am told the NS-10 is a first rate speaker, albeit one with no bass.
Yes, I saw Bob Hodas's review some time ago - truly hysterical - and right on the nose! The tissue paper mod is very effective however! Years ago I worked for a certain well-known blind entertainer - who shall remain unnamed - but the track on "Living for the City" sounded really good through NS-10s...
Go figure....
NS-10s are great for "burn-out" middle-aged guys like me with poor top-end hearing - (probably a result of sitting too close to cranked-up Leslie horns and overblown PA systems).
So, what should I build - short of strapping some JBL compression drivers straight to my head as headphones?...
My wife would like to hear some music as well - so there needs to be a compromise. In other words - I'm thinking a decent 3-way should do the trick...netgeek said:P.S. Please bear in mind that I'm talking about fairly low levels for listening - Right now I'm living in a WW-2 era rowhouse with poor insulation and I swear I can hear the neighbor's cat sneeze on an average day. So, I'm concerned with levels well under 100 dB SPL - probably more like 75 or so.
Maybe this should be moved to a thread discussing headphones???!..
Anyway, the original question stands - any pointers to successful 3-way (or improved midrange) 2-way designs?
Thanks,
Bill
Well you could be an unknowing LS3/5A diehard waiting to come out.
Though I'd add a subwoofer.
sreten.
sreten - now you've done it...
Sometimes I'm amazed at how senile I've become! I asked what the LS3/5As were - when they've been sitting under my nose forever. We simply called them "the BBC things" so I never minded the actual nomenclature - stupid me! Mixdown was always done on some really expensive custom Westlake monitors and I never paid much attention to the small near-fields - but they were certainly used alot.
Anyway, sreten has now got me thinking about what I really want to build, and I'm thinking some killer mini-monitors are just what I need (low level listening, accurate, with alot of depth and width in small room situations).
The "ultimate" (if there is such a thing) would combine the best features of the LS3/5As, NS-10s, et. al into a package that would be ideal for small listening rooms (e.g. apartments/flats, dorm rooms, etc.) and that's exactly what I need at the moment. So the challenge is to combine modern drivers and active xover/eq along with integrated amps in order to accomplish this. I've been looking for just the right project - and this is it...
I'll start poring over the driver spec sheets and see if I can come up with something slightly less than ridiculous as a first pass - so that all here can snipe and otherwise be entertained at my expense until I get it sorted out...
Thanks for the help/comments so far!
Regards,
Bill
Sometimes I'm amazed at how senile I've become! I asked what the LS3/5As were - when they've been sitting under my nose forever. We simply called them "the BBC things" so I never minded the actual nomenclature - stupid me! Mixdown was always done on some really expensive custom Westlake monitors and I never paid much attention to the small near-fields - but they were certainly used alot.
Anyway, sreten has now got me thinking about what I really want to build, and I'm thinking some killer mini-monitors are just what I need (low level listening, accurate, with alot of depth and width in small room situations).
The "ultimate" (if there is such a thing) would combine the best features of the LS3/5As, NS-10s, et. al into a package that would be ideal for small listening rooms (e.g. apartments/flats, dorm rooms, etc.) and that's exactly what I need at the moment. So the challenge is to combine modern drivers and active xover/eq along with integrated amps in order to accomplish this. I've been looking for just the right project - and this is it...
I'll start poring over the driver spec sheets and see if I can come up with something slightly less than ridiculous as a first pass - so that all here can snipe and otherwise be entertained at my expense until I get it sorted out...
Thanks for the help/comments so far!
Regards,
Bill
http://www.geocities.com/kreskovs/John1.html
JK has already cloned the LS3/5A with modern drivers
(Focal/Morel) but with a passive c/o. His site seems to
have lost the link to the design, suggest you contact him.
The article contains lots of useful info on the LS3/5A's.
sreten.
JK has already cloned the LS3/5A with modern drivers
(Focal/Morel) but with a passive c/o. His site seems to
have lost the link to the design, suggest you contact him.
The article contains lots of useful info on the LS3/5A's.
sreten.Sreten - Thanks for that link. I'll try to contact John for details. In the meantime, for entertainment - any thoughts on this set of drivers in a "mini-monitor" of sorts:
3-Way Active, Sealed, <=.75 cu. ft.
Tangband W6-1139SC 6.5" Sub - PE 264-832. Don't laugh yet! This appeared to be a "solution" looking for a non-existent problem, but might just do the trick in such a small monitor application. The xmax is 11.5mm and bashing the numbers in WinISD - it will reach into the 20's (at low volumes) using a Linkwitz set for around 25Hz/Q=.6 It hits max. excursion with slightly under 80 watts (within it's specs, btw) at around 25 Hz and 86dB. This is using the CLIO T/S parameters - which are wildly different than the Tangband data sheet, btw......
Crossover at approximately 300 Hz to:
Vifa PL11MG09-08 4" Midbass - specs at www.d-s-t.com - Madisound lists it for US$34.40 The FR on the data sheet looks pretty spectacular and, if believable, can use an xover higher than 3,000 Hz with no problems. (Note that this is the PL11MG - not the more common PL11WG)...
Crossover at approximately 3,000 Hz to:
????? Too many choices - limited only by wallet - but a good starting point might be the Usher 9930 or 9950 - specs at www.zalytron.com - roughly US$46 which looks like a deal.
Anyway, let the laughter begin........
Bill
Changed "FS" to "FR" - oops..
3-Way Active, Sealed, <=.75 cu. ft.
Tangband W6-1139SC 6.5" Sub - PE 264-832. Don't laugh yet! This appeared to be a "solution" looking for a non-existent problem, but might just do the trick in such a small monitor application. The xmax is 11.5mm and bashing the numbers in WinISD - it will reach into the 20's (at low volumes) using a Linkwitz set for around 25Hz/Q=.6 It hits max. excursion with slightly under 80 watts (within it's specs, btw) at around 25 Hz and 86dB. This is using the CLIO T/S parameters - which are wildly different than the Tangband data sheet, btw......
Crossover at approximately 300 Hz to:
Vifa PL11MG09-08 4" Midbass - specs at www.d-s-t.com - Madisound lists it for US$34.40 The FR on the data sheet looks pretty spectacular and, if believable, can use an xover higher than 3,000 Hz with no problems. (Note that this is the PL11MG - not the more common PL11WG)...
Crossover at approximately 3,000 Hz to:
????? Too many choices - limited only by wallet - but a good starting point might be the Usher 9930 or 9950 - specs at www.zalytron.com - roughly US$46 which looks like a deal.
Anyway, let the laughter begin........
Bill
Changed "FS" to "FR" - oops..
For an active small 3 way there so much driver choice its hard
to know where to begin, but I'd suggest taking a look at the
latest Seas aluminium drivers, start here :
http://home.hetnet.nl/~geenius/HATT-III.html
If your not going to use a sub then IMO for a small speaker a
good driver and passive radiator is the only option for low bass.
sreten.
to know where to begin, but I'd suggest taking a look at the
latest Seas aluminium drivers, start here :
http://home.hetnet.nl/~geenius/HATT-III.html
If your not going to use a sub then IMO for a small speaker a
good driver and passive radiator is the only option for low bass.
sreten.- Status
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