Since a while now I want to build some speakers but I need some help with the concept. I'm listening to electronic music, sometimes hip hop and sometimes jazz music. You never get that feeling from small speakers so I'm definitely going to build horn speakers. Problem is my studio is quite small, about 15m² now and maybe 20m² in the future.
I like the concept of the Calpamos by Humblemadehifi because it uses the midrange horn down to 650hz. But I definitely want to use a multi sub system with 3 or 4 closed subwoofers. So I don't need a 15" woofer. A 12" woofer like the faital pro 12PR320 in a closed box would be better in the upper bass/midrange I think. But the PH2380 horn is too big for a 12" woofer (opitcally). Would this be a problem?
What should I do now?
- just use the 12PR320 with PH-2380+Faital HF201 (Calpamos with 12")
- use the 12PR320 with a smaller horn and driver combination (like mezzo Calpamos for example)
-or maybe build a horn for the 12" woofer (B&C 12PE32) and combine it with PH-2380+Faital HF201
I want to use an DSP with IIR and FIR filters. Best place for the speakers would be in the corners since the room is not that big. In the other two corners I'm going to put bass traps and in general I want to use 3-4 absorbers. But I'm not sure if get problems with early reflections using a constant directivity horn.
What do you think will work best in a small room? I'm open to other driver and horn suggestions. But most smaller horns just go down to 1,2khz-1,5khz
Would something like the Martion Orgon but using a multisub instead of corner horns be overkill in small rooms? I could use a 70-80cm tractrix horn with a 12" woofer for 80hz-800hz( I know not enough horn loading for 80hz), the BMS 4591 for 800hz-3khz with a 30-40cm tractrix and a 1" driver with 12-20cm tractrix for 3khz-20khz. Would this work or is it hard to build because of the two ways for 800hz-20khz?
I like the concept of the Calpamos by Humblemadehifi because it uses the midrange horn down to 650hz. But I definitely want to use a multi sub system with 3 or 4 closed subwoofers. So I don't need a 15" woofer. A 12" woofer like the faital pro 12PR320 in a closed box would be better in the upper bass/midrange I think. But the PH2380 horn is too big for a 12" woofer (opitcally). Would this be a problem?
What should I do now?
- just use the 12PR320 with PH-2380+Faital HF201 (Calpamos with 12")
- use the 12PR320 with a smaller horn and driver combination (like mezzo Calpamos for example)
-or maybe build a horn for the 12" woofer (B&C 12PE32) and combine it with PH-2380+Faital HF201
I want to use an DSP with IIR and FIR filters. Best place for the speakers would be in the corners since the room is not that big. In the other two corners I'm going to put bass traps and in general I want to use 3-4 absorbers. But I'm not sure if get problems with early reflections using a constant directivity horn.
What do you think will work best in a small room? I'm open to other driver and horn suggestions. But most smaller horns just go down to 1,2khz-1,5khz
Would something like the Martion Orgon but using a multisub instead of corner horns be overkill in small rooms? I could use a 70-80cm tractrix horn with a 12" woofer for 80hz-800hz( I know not enough horn loading for 80hz), the BMS 4591 for 800hz-3khz with a 30-40cm tractrix and a 1" driver with 12-20cm tractrix for 3khz-20khz. Would this work or is it hard to build because of the two ways for 800hz-20khz?
Your recipe sounds right. They tried to convince me to use a 12 for my project. I wanted the 15 for my own reason. I just bought a pair of JBL2380a's for pretty cheap used. Multiple subs is status quo for best bass I think.
We were just talking about carbon-cotton diaphragms...its a new thing I guess, cheaper than beryllium, sounds just as good or better. I'd be looking into that for your horn driver. Oberton makes the driver. Eminence has a driver with a woven carbon diaphragm, the performance is either on par or better than the 2 other materials in discussion. Eventually all this is going to trickle down to 4" diaphragms hopefully, at which point I'll put one in my old Jbl driver and see what that does.
I must ask you, you put Monitor in parenthesis's...whats the meaning of this word to you? For me, it comes with a strict set of rules. This needs to be made clear before you receive help from anyone.
We were just talking about carbon-cotton diaphragms...its a new thing I guess, cheaper than beryllium, sounds just as good or better. I'd be looking into that for your horn driver. Oberton makes the driver. Eminence has a driver with a woven carbon diaphragm, the performance is either on par or better than the 2 other materials in discussion. Eventually all this is going to trickle down to 4" diaphragms hopefully, at which point I'll put one in my old Jbl driver and see what that does.
I must ask you, you put Monitor in parenthesis's...whats the meaning of this word to you? For me, it comes with a strict set of rules. This needs to be made clear before you receive help from anyone.
Great to hear that I'm on the right way with the multisub and the 12" woofer.
My room dimension is 3m*5m. Monitor means that I'm producing music and the speaker should be "neutral" with linear frequency response (as far as possible). But let's not start a discussion about studio monitors. I have no professional studio so I know that I won't get same sound as a mastering studio...
I need to read more about Pi speakers.
In the meantime I found the 1" PH-3220 horn which is the same like Monacor MRH-200. Together with a BMS 4550 it can go down to 1khz. Faital Pro 12PR320 seems like a decent driver so this might be great combination. And it's not that far from the 650hz cutoff of the Calpamos horn.
My room dimension is 3m*5m. Monitor means that I'm producing music and the speaker should be "neutral" with linear frequency response (as far as possible). But let's not start a discussion about studio monitors. I have no professional studio so I know that I won't get same sound as a mastering studio...
I need to read more about Pi speakers.
In the meantime I found the 1" PH-3220 horn which is the same like Monacor MRH-200. Together with a BMS 4550 it can go down to 1khz. Faital Pro 12PR320 seems like a decent driver so this might be great combination. And it's not that far from the 650hz cutoff of the Calpamos horn.
Ok. Your room should be ok for a Pi7 kind of speaker ( W.Parham recommend 3m width for best results with his corner located loudspeakers).
He have documents about his design phylosophy and afaik it is possible to buy plan from him for his medium horn.
Interesting design to study anyway, you won't loose your time reading this ( as paper from E. Geddes and others).
If you go multisub you may not need basstrap at all ( if you follow Geddes approach ...worth a read too! ).
He have documents about his design phylosophy and afaik it is possible to buy plan from him for his medium horn.
Interesting design to study anyway, you won't loose your time reading this ( as paper from E. Geddes and others).
If you go multisub you may not need basstrap at all ( if you follow Geddes approach ...worth a read too! ).
I don't think diy is the right way to go for a small studio. For monitoring you need sth tried tested. In small studio you will need small monitors; reason is driver integration
. Even in large studios, they usually have one set of large monitors and several small monitors. And for small monitors diy does not really add much benefit. Unless you do it for the journey. Then I advice to stay clear of CDs and large horns. Dome+waveguide or an amt is your best bet with a 8" midbass largest.
. Even in large studios, they usually have one set of large monitors and several small monitors. And for small monitors diy does not really add much benefit. Unless you do it for the journey. Then I advice to stay clear of CDs and large horns. Dome+waveguide or an amt is your best bet with a 8" midbass largest.
Not much has changed, still creeping along lol...added a woofer to the bottom (2x18), sealed boxes, settle on a small horn, still working on the big horns....trying to figure out how to create a one directional open baffle like performance for the 15...stuff like that
You believe that a driver size can be "too big" for a room.. I'm building monitors for a small studio, 2 x18"s, and 15" and a 32" wide horn.... sue me. Efficiency is requirement for studio monitoring, though it isn't widely known, and if only because I say so.
Well that is a pov. Other exist.
There is a misconception about the use of nearfield monitors in studio use: most of the time they are here as reference for freelance which change room often and needs something they know to work with.
Well this is what i experienced in big studio's when i worked in. It may have changed since but i'm doubtful about it.
Small speaker in smallroom... hmmm. Maybe but as Camplo pointed small drivers doesn't have the SPL capability you may need while producing.
Go figure i would advice that below 8" forget for monitoring! Each one it's own.
That said yes for monitoring tried and tested is better i agree. But if your not into studio business and run a project or personal place this is possible going diy. It may be frustrating, take forever to have something 'good' but could be rewarding in the end.
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Well that would be great. It would take less space. So far I thought bass traps are useful anyway.
That's the reason I didn't want to discuss studio monitors
This discussion will never end. IMO your hear more details with horn speaker even with lower volume. The reason why I want horn speaker: I make music which is played in clubs on big systems. You will never get the idea of this music on "normal" speaker or small studio monitors. Furthermore I have no problem using a second pair of small speakers next to the big ones (for reference or whatever). My room is small so I can't use speaker where you need a listening distance of 4-5m. That's why I look for smaller ones (two way, 12").
Another idea: I'll just wait until the faital HF1440 is released. Together with the 18S XT1464 or P-Audio PH-64(60°x40°) I can reduce early reflections. There is even the P-Audio PH-94 with 90°x40°. A wide radiation is maybe better for small listening distances.
In combination with the 12PR320 in a closed box and 3-4 subwoofer in closed box this could get a nice system.
I think you are already on the right track.
Your challenge will be ka vs your xover point vs horn/woofer dimensions and horn type which decides dispersion. I think experimentation with various horn types, is a necessary part of the process unless you are already well versed in the different sounds they can produce and know exactly what you want. Possibly, the traits we desire for monitoring (high dynamic potential, efficiency, and linear response) have already been met with most all compression driver plus horn relationships and the last part (horn sub groups) is that of taste? It would be nice to taste all the different horns. Whatever you choose, you are going to voice it flattish on axis, and your critical listening (work) will be done on axis as well, unless you desire otherwise. Tried and true is good strategy so just pick a popularly accepted horn... a new gen compression driver... your favorite 12" and whatever you want for the bottom...call it a day!
http://www.strauss-electroacoustics.com/produkte-en/mastering-monitors/se-mf-2.1
I am biased towards spherical horns....choose wisely =)
- the large system I'm building is for nearfield, 1m. The most important part is keeping Ka (2 is rule of thumb but I say 1 and lower is much better for near field) in check, as it will limit the distance by a way of narrowing of the polar. There are constant directivity horns and other horns that are widely accepted for you to choose from. Ka is going to be really important for listening proximity, the lower the Ka at xover, the closer you can be. Your ear is either going to be on axis with the horn or in between the horn and the woofer? You'll have to work out the details.
Your challenge will be ka vs your xover point vs horn/woofer dimensions and horn type which decides dispersion. I think experimentation with various horn types, is a necessary part of the process unless you are already well versed in the different sounds they can produce and know exactly what you want. Possibly, the traits we desire for monitoring (high dynamic potential, efficiency, and linear response) have already been met with most all compression driver plus horn relationships and the last part (horn sub groups) is that of taste? It would be nice to taste all the different horns. Whatever you choose, you are going to voice it flattish on axis, and your critical listening (work) will be done on axis as well, unless you desire otherwise. Tried and true is good strategy so just pick a popularly accepted horn... a new gen compression driver... your favorite 12" and whatever you want for the bottom...call it a day!
http://www.strauss-electroacoustics.com/produkte-en/mastering-monitors/se-mf-2.1
I am biased towards spherical horns....choose wisely =)
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The top most of the register needs to be considered. The new gen drivers show promise but I don't know if any are considered to be the "best of the best" between 10-20khz. I am not sure how one designs for a super tweeter for near-field on top of another horn....maybe I'll study that. Otherwise, a sacrifice for the greater good and since you are wanting to mimic PA equipment on some level anyway, your other monitoring equipment will suffice.
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I always thought my english is quite good but the technical terms are not easy for me as I read everything in german so far. So please excuse my noob question, what is Ka?
I know the Strauss MF-2.1 Monitor. That's why I like the Calpamos a lot The horn is a copy of the JBL horn which is used in the JBL monitors. And the JBL monitors were used in some mastering studios so I guess they are proven.
I guess I could just use that horn with that 2" Faital driver from the Calpamos with a 12" woofer. The only advantage of a 15" woofer is that it goes lower. But I don't need it because of the multisub. I could live with the problem that the horn is bigger than the 12". But you mentioned the higher frequencies on 2" drivers. You can read in the youtube comments that the higher frequencies were a little bit smoother on the 1" driver of the Mezzo Calpamos.
That's why I mentioned the Martion Orgon in the beginning. I think it's better to split the whole frequency range and use the best sized driver for every specific range. But the Orgon is a masterpiece imo and it took years to develop it. I would never come close to it with diy.
A super tweeter in combination with a midrange horn is probably not a good idea in nearfield. Midrange horns are big and the distance between the drivers gets big. It wouldn't sound like one sound source I think.
I heard some different horns and I like constant directivity because of the bigger sweet spot. That is an advantage for me because I'm not always on the same spot while making music. I can do the critical part on axis, no problem. But it would be nice to hear some high frequencies off axis as well. Only concern are the early reflections because the speakers are close to the wall. I can't leave 1m distance between wall and speaker because on 3m the speakers would stand next to each other But if I put them in a triangel and use absorbers for the early reflections it could work hopefully. But as you said, maybe I have to try some things before I get the best result.
I know the Strauss MF-2.1 Monitor. That's why I like the Calpamos a lot
The horn is a copy of the JBL horn which is used in the JBL monitors. And the JBL monitors were used in some mastering studios so I guess they are proven. I guess I could just use that horn with that 2" Faital driver from the Calpamos with a 12" woofer. The only advantage of a 15" woofer is that it goes lower. But I don't need it because of the multisub. I could live with the problem that the horn is bigger than the 12". But you mentioned the higher frequencies on 2" drivers. You can read in the youtube comments that the higher frequencies were a little bit smoother on the 1" driver of the Mezzo Calpamos.
That's why I mentioned the Martion Orgon in the beginning. I think it's better to split the whole frequency range and use the best sized driver for every specific range. But the Orgon is a masterpiece imo and it took years to develop it. I would never come close to it with diy.
A super tweeter in combination with a midrange horn is probably not a good idea in nearfield. Midrange horns are big and the distance between the drivers gets big. It wouldn't sound like one sound source I think.
I heard some different horns and I like constant directivity because of the bigger sweet spot. That is an advantage for me because I'm not always on the same spot while making music. I can do the critical part on axis, no problem. But it would be nice to hear some high frequencies off axis as well. Only concern are the early reflections because the speakers are close to the wall. I can't leave 1m distance between wall and speaker because on 3m the speakers would stand next to each other
But if I put them in a triangel and use absorbers for the early reflections it could work hopefully. But as you said, maybe I have to try some things before I get the best result.My personal experience in moving my big waveguide+15" driver system from a large room (5 x 7m) to a small room (4 x 5m) was not great. At the shorter listening distance the speakers never sounded right. You could always tell that there were multiple drivers at work and they never sounded cohesive.
As reference I was using a large waveguide (21" x 17") with a 2" CD crossed over at ~800Hz to the 15" midbass (which was crossed over to multiple subs at ~60Hz). Bass was fine. Mid to high was the problem.
I have moved to a 12" coaxial driver which sounds fine in my small room (again, crossed over to multiple subs). I will eventually build another set of waveguide + 14" (JBL 2217) speakers as I have the drivers already and there are aspects of the coaxial that I'm not in love with. I hope that with the smaller (14" x 10") waveguide and tighter spacing my integration problems will be solved.
As reference I was using a large waveguide (21" x 17") with a 2" CD crossed over at ~800Hz to the 15" midbass (which was crossed over to multiple subs at ~60Hz). Bass was fine. Mid to high was the problem.
I have moved to a 12" coaxial driver which sounds fine in my small room (again, crossed over to multiple subs). I will eventually build another set of waveguide + 14" (JBL 2217) speakers as I have the drivers already and there are aspects of the coaxial that I'm not in love with. I hope that with the smaller (14" x 10") waveguide and tighter spacing my integration problems will be solved.
I always thought my english is quite good but the technical terms are not easy for me as I read everything in german so far. So please excuse my noob question, what is Ka?
I know the Strauss MF-2.1 Monitor. That's why I like the Calpamos a lot
I guess I could just use that horn with that 2" Faital driver from the Calpamos with a 12" woofer. The only advantage of a 15" woofer is that it goes lower. But I don't need it because of the multisub. I could live with the problem that the horn is bigger than the 12". But you mentioned the higher frequencies on 2" drivers. You can read in the youtube comments that the higher frequencies were a little bit smoother on the 1" driver of the Mezzo Calpamos.
That's why I mentioned the Martion Orgon in the beginning. I think it's better to split the whole frequency range and use the best sized driver for every specific range. But the Orgon is a masterpiece imo and it took years to develop it. I would never come close to it with diy.
A super tweeter in combination with a midrange horn is probably not a good idea in nearfield. Midrange horns are big and the distance between the drivers gets big. It wouldn't sound like one sound source I think.
I heard some different horns and I like constant directivity because of the bigger sweet spot. That is an advantage for me because I'm not always on the same spot while making music. I can do the critical part on axis, no problem. But it would be nice to hear some high frequencies off axis as well. Only concern are the early reflections because the speakers are close to the wall. I can't leave 1m distance between wall and speaker because on 3m the speakers would stand next to each other
Ka is directivity factor, the greater the more directive it is ( iirc a ka of one is = to 90* conical, higher means 60*, 45*,20*,... but check as i'm not totaly sure...
).15" drivers have other advantage: as they have larger membrane area they have to move less for a given spl. And movement is the ennemy as the more you move the more distortion you have... Imo there is other advantage with bigger driver as they sound more natural to me. I have nothing scientifical to back up about that but it is my feeling ( but don't take it for granted, i'am biased i listen to 15" at home for almost 30years now).
That said they can be difficult to position in small room, i struggled a lot with mine in small and medium size domestic room ( lets say from 20m2 to 40m2).
Midrange horn are not nescessarely big take a look at the Pi speaker 7 mid horn ( but you'll have to use the high horn he offer as a combo as they are meant to work as combo).
Ok so if you want large sweetspot don't forget coax! ( ok here again i'm biased... Camplo already know lol! I can't help myself...
).Sorry to repeat but Pi7 are corner CONSTANT DIRECTIVITY HORNS meant to be spaced 3m away. Iow they should be perfect for your room layout. To be fair they even use the corner as waveguide for the low/sub horn...
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Ok an other favouring point to k7: being corner loaded 90* constant directivity they reflect almost nothing from front wall and closest side wall.
This leave only the facing wall( and floor and ceiling... but forget about for now) as source of Early Reflection.
Take a pencil and a sheet and draw a sketch of the situation and you'll see that the distance a 'ray of sound' ( yes this is a crude approximation of the ray tracing technique used by acousticians ) have to travel to go back to the sweetspot will give you an attenuation of almost 15db ( by the distance the sound as to travel- you loose 6db each time you double the distance from 1m to 2m, 2m to 4m,...) and the first ER cluster will have a delay time around 15ms.
This is an interesting set of feature as in my experience it give a 'forward' presentation of reproduced message, like if you were located in the front seat of a stage right in the middle of the stage.
You can easily reproduce the feeling using a reverb plug disabling reverb cue and using ER level -15db and ER time of 15ms ( listen to headphone, through speakers you'll surimpose the sound of your room upon and skrew everything).
Compare to Live End Dead End set of parameters (-20db and 20ms) and see which one you prefer.
This is a rough approximation but close enough to make a choice imho.
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Hweb,
You may have experienced an issue regarding the minimal distance to use the speakers. Ime this is related to centre to centre distance of drivers ( or drivers and horn) as you need a minimum distance for the 2 wavefronts to merge or as exposed by Camplo an issue about Ka of horn.
What you didn't like about coax? The behavior of treble? Which kind of drivers have you used?
You may have experienced an issue regarding the minimal distance to use the speakers. Ime this is related to centre to centre distance of drivers ( or drivers and horn) as you need a minimum distance for the 2 wavefronts to merge or as exposed by Camplo an issue about Ka of horn.
What you didn't like about coax? The behavior of treble? Which kind of drivers have you used?
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Hi,
If I may, due to your room size, and I assume less than 2.5 m heigth, your system will be too much boomy for the room. With the 12" here , the voices risk to be a little too...hard to find the word... too much !
If you can, the speaker will sound better if the front wall is the 3 m one with minimum 0.5 m from the side walls (try assymetric distance with the opposit side wall) . And 0.8 to 1 m from the front wall (from the front loudspeaker plate to the wall behind).
That's just mho but in your shoes I will not go above a 6" in a monitor package on stand and yes why not two little distributed sub or a standalone one open a la Linkwitz. Or a 2 way monitor w/o sub with a sealed 6" to 8" woofer with a F3 between 45 Hz and 55 Hz (QTC around 0.8 (or tuned for details in the load if a vented, not for the lowest F3) and a 1.2 " to 1.5" dome in a little horn lens (or your initial choice with a horn but if the system is active no to waste the treble with a too big resistor to match the spl mid-woof.
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100% agree! Less cone movement = lower distortion = more natural sound.
Also I would add my support for line array.
Wesayso has a nice thread on this forum and going back about 8 years I think, Overkillaudio had some gorgeous line arrays with a really nice 4.5 inch BMR / full range hybrid driver.
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