Oh Great Heil

Hi all,

TLDR is at the bottom if this is too much of a long story!

My Great Heils have sat in boxes for over a year. This must change.

I am looking for advice on a good way to go with them - preferably 2-way to keep costs down.

My room is 5m wide by 7m long, and 3m tall. (15' wide by 21' long by 9' tall).
Since I have a two year old around most of the time I'm not able to listen to the system at very loud levels these days.

Some of you may have seen my thread about making a horn with them - but any horn worth a damn for the Heils will just be too wide for the house I live in at this stage, so I need another plan.

I have the equipment to actively crossover this project - multiple amps, multi-channel usb DAC and Equalizer APO software installed. So I have the freedom to choose woofers that aren't an exact match for efficiency or impedance load.

In terms of design to go with, of course I have already done a bit of research and thinking already, but many here are far more experienced and knowledgeable than me thus I am putting this out to anyone kind enough to give me some ideas or critique.

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Originally while surfing around I came upon Linkwitz's LXMinis.
I was taken with their compact design and semi-dipole nature - and their ability to not have to be too far from the walls but still get a little dipole magic.
You might say, just build the LXMinis - sure. But I want to use my Heils! Additionally the drivers cost to Australia is very high - I have much more cost effective options here and I am trying to keep costs down to the minimum that will work for the Heils.

I thought of keeping the base design rather similar but replacing the full-range up top with the Heil.

Here is a mock up:
LXMini-With-Heil.PNG


Then I came to the realisation - this won't work!
1, the Heils are heavy! 2, the Heils don't go as low as the full range, so it isn't a great match.
This design would be stupid without some kind of mega bracing or complete re-think.

So I thought perhaps I could make rectangular boxes for it instead, like this:
LXMini-Square-With-Heil.PNG


This is better but probably not ideal.

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After this I thought maybe I should do a complete rethink towards something a bit more conventional - likely a 6-8" woofer in a ported box with the Heil on top.
So I went hunting and came up with a short-list of the woofers that could work for this project and that have availability in Australia.
The are:
Dayton DA-175-8 x2 (cost per side $130). (cons - large enclosure required)
Dayton RS180-4/8 (cost per side: $100). (cons - SPL not too great if more bass is desired)
Dayton RS225-4/8 (cost per side: $140). (probably ideal but the crossover point might be a bit tight)

I also looked at a few SB Acoustics items but nothing was jumping at me like the Daytons. I'm open to suggestions though - SB Acoustics are also readily source-able in Australia.

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Another question I had was - ported or sealed with additional subwoofer?
I have access to a single Dayton RSS265-4 which I could make a ported cabinet for that could go down to ~23Hz.
But then I came upon a thread talking about throwing out the subwoofer if you just listen to music, which honestly appealed to me.
If I can get these speakers to go down low enough that I don't need to build a subwoofer for them, that would make me very happy.

So, how low would I need to go?
I did a test on my main system with Equalizer APO where I could turn on/off a low-pass filter at ~45Hz and see if I missed anything with the genres of music I listen to.

Well, for the majority of music I listen to, I could hardly tell the difference.
Sure, for the electronic music, the deep bass beats were not as audible or impressive, but for the rest, it was fine.
In the end, if I am not satisfied with the bass from this build I can just build the subwoofer and be done with it - but I would like to aim to not need it if at all possible.

So I was surfing along the xKi thread and again was impressed with how much the xKi can squeeze out of a small driver.
Of course I am still waiting for my own xKis to be finished from my Dad (which will be my computer speakers) but perhaps there is a driver that works in a larger xKi down to ~40Hz that I can use as the midbass match for my Heil? The XKis appeal in that they have good cone control, great midbass performance and are compact for the bass they can output.


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TLDR
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Is there any (preferably Dayton) driver costing at or less than $150AUD each and cabinet combo anyone could suggest that would pair well as a two-way with the Heil (so crossover point somewhere between 800Hz and 2000Hz) down to around ~40Hz or lower?

Thanks to any and all who contribute!
 
Thanks everyone for responding.

Kec, how have you configured your RS225s?
Are they sealed or ported and how low are they going to?
Also, do you have sub(s)?

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Also, does anyone have any driver and cabinet combinations to recommend for getting ~40Hz to 800Hz/1200Hz/2000Hz?

I saw Michael Chua's (now almost 10 year old design) for the Merlin: Dayton RS-180 Double Chamber Reflex (DCR)
It's a double chamber reflex utilizing a Dayton RS180-8-S, and gets down to ~40Hz.

Has anyone built or heard this design?
 
Kec, how have you configured your RS225s?
Are they sealed or ported and how low are they going to?
Also, do you have sub(s)?

Hi themcul,

I modified the RS Duet MLTL cabinets (Paul Kittinger design) that I previously built. I kept the 10"x10" width and depth the same but shortened the height to about 30.75". I removed 1 of the 4 internal braces and converted it from a MLTL to bass reflex. I used a down-firing 3" Precision Port and raised the cabinet about 2.75" for port clearance.

Attached is the WinISD model I used. F3 is about 32.85 Hz as shown. I use miniDSP crossed @ 1K and biamp the drivers. No subs needed unless you're a bass freak :D
 

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So I was surfing along the xKi thread and again was impressed with how much the xKi can squeeze out of a small driver.
Of course I am still waiting for my own xKis to be finished from my Dad (which will be my computer speakers) but perhaps there is a driver that works in a larger xKi down to ~40Hz that I can use as the midbass match for my Heil? The XKis appeal in that they have good cone control, great midbass performance and are compact for the bass they can output.

Which driver were you going to make the XKi’s with?
 
The Kec, thanks for sharing your design - that's great info.

Hi X and thanks for responding,
I'm not sure which driver to get and am looking for good mid-bass options from Dayton/SB Acoustics/Peerless at the price of RS225s or less, and able to get down to F3 ~40Hz which is where I found I didn't miss the bass below that.
Out of the RS225 and the RS180 the RS225 would undoubtedly be better for a two-way with the Heil wouldn't it, and probably better than anything from Peerless and SB Acoustics for the price as well.

Do you have an XKi design for the RS180 or RS225? Would they even work well in an XKi?
 
So there are two designs I am considering for the Heil. One is a synergy horn style, and the other is a LX-Mini style for a partial dipole speaker.

I am still working out how I'd do the horn, so for now I am focusing on the dipole design.

The two main drivers I am considering for it are the Faital PRO 6FE100 and the Dayton RS225-8.

However since the Dayton RS225 is an 8" speaker, it's directivity will increase too early for me to put the speaker up-facing.

So I am more keen on the 6FE100. I have mocked up a design in Blender with the correct internal volume (~34L) and tuned for 45Hz. The first port resonance is beyond where I am crossing over, it will be -10db at that point. Speed of air won't exceed 17m/s before xmax is met. Only 30W per side needed. I will be bi-amping this with crossovers implemented using Equalizer APO and an 8 channel DAC.

I think the plots I have got for the 6FE100 look good - can anyone comment on the design and let me know if anything looks amiss or see any glaring faults with a design like this?

Front.PNG

Front shot

Port.PNG

A look at the up-facing port behind the 6FE100

SPL.PNG

SPL Plot

Group+Delay.PNG

Group Delay with port details below

Cone+Excursion.PNG

Cone excursion with the filters listed below

Air+Velocity.PNG

Air velocity
 
I am looking for advice on a good way to go with them - preferably 2-way to keep costs down.

[...]

I have the equipment to actively crossover this project - multiple amps, multi-channel usb DAC and Equalizer APO software installed. So I have the freedom to choose woofers that aren't an exact match for efficiency or impedance load.

What parts do you already have on hand?

In an earlier thread, you said you already had a sub, and multiple large diameter drivers. If that's still the case, your 2-way only needs to go to 80Hz or so, and doesn't need to be ported.

Is there any (preferably Dayton) driver costing at or less than $150AUD each and cabinet combo anyone could suggest that would pair well as a two-way with the Heil (so crossover point somewhere between 800Hz and 2000Hz) down to around ~40Hz or lower?

Other than Dayton, here are some options / vendors:

DJ city

In theory they have a lot of cheap replacement drivers, but they are mostly out of stock. This one seems like their last option in your size range:

Fenton 902195 Replacement 5" Monitor Woofer - 150W - DJ City

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This place:

Alternative Imports - Australia's Alternative Product Specialist - We Buy Direct

Their small woofers seem to have typical specs for cheap pro drivers (high eff, low X-max), so would probably be best if high passed.

That's probably the option I'd go for (assuming a sub). Well under your budget.

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Digikey have Tymphany, Visaton and a couple of other brands. Free postage on purchases over $60. The Tymphany drivers have spec sheets that are accurate, based on what I've picked up.

Tick the "in stock" box when searching for parts. Many of the other filters are a bit borked (e.g. some mids are classified as subs) so I suggest not to use them - just list all the speakers from most $ to least. All the really cheap ones are buzzers and micro speakers.

They have quite a few normal drivers in your range, and also some low profile dome woofers, like this:

Test Bench: Tymphany GBS-135F25AL02-04 5.25-Inch Woofer | audioXpress

...which IMO would look good in the configuration you are proposing. They seem to have an odd dispersion pattern that may be better than a cone of similar size.
 
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