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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

synergy.....Take #7
synergy.....Take #7
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Old 27th March 2020, 10:38 PM   #31
bwaslo is offline bwaslo  United States
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synergy.....Take #7
I've never got around to using foam core, but I'd expect that you'd be fine with it for secondary flares (unless you plan to support all the weight via the secondary flares that is). There'd be no drivers attached directly to it after all and the weight difference should be significant. If it gives you any trouble transmitting vibration, a layer of rubber or foam on the back of it might take care of that.

A big plus of it is that it would take little time to try out compared to messing with wood.
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Old 28th March 2020, 02:55 AM   #32
fluid is offline fluid  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark100 View Post
I'm kinda beginning to wonder why care about out of band nulls, if contained ...

Cause I really like steep xovers, which make out-of-band nulls less problematic.

If I want to cross higher it seems worth addressing, but otherwise i think it makes sense to just tame the null with enough EQ , so that a steep xoxer renders the null completely inconsequential.....

Whatcha think?
Unless it has any impact on your crossover then it probably can be left alone.

If it is a real null rather than a dip then EQ won't fix it in any case.

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Originally Posted by mark100 View Post
Worst waistbanding I've seen yet ! lol

I did notice before, on syns of 60x60 and 60x40 without secondary flares, that the tighter the pattern and the larger the horn, the less was the waistbanding.
That's why I suspect the wider 90x60 may be a contributing factor.
The waistbanding pattern/flip comes from the asymmetry of the waveguide, the more asymmetric you make it the worse it will get. The secondary flare will help, but it will always be worse than a square one.


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Originally Posted by mark100 View Post
Frankly, the increased waistbanding was a surprise, because it's been the smoothest sounding synergy attempt 'out of the box' yet. (indoors)
I'm really beginning to think wider dispersion is simply easier to get right than narrow dispersion, in terms of overall sound and room integration.
Almost everyone that has tried 60 and 90 degree waveguides of the same type seem to prefer the wider pattern in room.

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Originally Posted by mark100 View Post
The big 60x40 syn with secondary flare has an almost magic sound to it, but indoors it begs for sweet spot listening and too much fiddling with the tonality of individual tracks.
The new 90x60 syn7 has glorious clarity but not quite the magic sound. And pleasantly, i find i don't feel the need to make nearly as many track by track adjustments.
I have had some EQ schemes on my own speakers that have been really awesome on some tracks but don't work across the board. When I find something that sounds good on almost everything I know I'm heading in the right direction even if it is not quite so awesome on some tracks. I haven't been able to get both together yet which is why I am still tweaking it
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Old 28th March 2020, 02:26 PM   #33
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
Download the tractrix horn spreadsheet from Volvotreterís website.

I made a scale plot of the tractrix function (XY graphing software). I put that jpg image into CAD software as a template background. I then used a spline segment and hand fitted that to the jpg background. Then extruded that to get the curved wall. I intersected that with the top and bottom flat walls. Then I used the sheet metal unroll function to get a flat plan for cutting.

There is probably an easier way somewhere else but thatís what I did.

I recall seeing an horn designer package called ATH4 in the Multi-way forum. Maybe Hornresp May even do this automatically.

You can also scale my pdf design.

Presenting the Trynergy - a full range tractrix synergy.
Thanks a bunch ! Very helpful info to get going.

I've definitely decided to try a tractrix-like secondary flare, not conical.
Think i'll start with bendy board, wiggle board, whatever the local name for bendable ply.
Syn7 has about a 4" unencumbered band around the mouth to make secondary attachment easier. Probably looking at about a 10" secondary expansion.
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Old 28th March 2020, 03:05 PM   #34
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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synergy.....Take #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by fluid View Post
Unless it has any impact on your crossover then it probably can be left alone.

If it is a real null rather than a dip then EQ won't fix it in any case.

The waistbanding pattern/flip comes from the asymmetry of the waveguide, the more asymmetric you make it the worse it will get. The secondary flare will help, but it will always be worse than a square one.


Almost everyone that has tried 60 and 90 degree waveguides of the same type seem to prefer the wider pattern in room.

I have had some EQ schemes on my own speakers that have been really awesome on some tracks but don't work across the board. When I find something that sounds good on almost everything I know I'm heading in the right direction even if it is not quite so awesome on some tracks. I haven't been able to get both together yet which is why I am still tweaking it
Yep re nulls, and I guess most of the auto-eqs being used that match response to a target curve which include xover slope, are likely applying out of band EQ to the nulls anyway. Or at least attempting to...i know FirD does..

I think i've read Tom D say that a 1.6X aspect ratio limit is a good rule of thumb to avoid major pattern flip.

I was hoping the 90x60 syn7, at 1.5X would show less than it did.
The 60x40 I built had less waistbanding.
So I'm thinking the rule of thumb may need adjusting according to how wide or narrow pattern control is...just spit-balling here...

I've consistently liked the sound of 60 degree horns over 90 degrees using the bms coax CD, both inside and out, ...when everything is just right...particular spot, particular track, EQ. volume, etc, etc ect.
The latest syn is a 90 degree-er, to overcome the need for everything to be just right...well that, and maybe more importantly I saw how to build it to weigh less than my 60 ...

At any rate, the waistbanding is not a setback at all...i almost view it as a blessing in that it motivates me to go ahead and try to add a tractrix secondary flare ...which has been part of the eventual design goal all along.
Syn7 is sounding so good indoors I would be tempted to be lazy and skip the secondary if measurements were better ...well, skip for a while that is lol
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Old 28th March 2020, 03:22 PM   #35
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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synergy.....Take #7
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Originally Posted by bwaslo View Post
I've never got around to using foam core, but I'd expect that you'd be fine with it for secondary flares (unless you plan to support all the weight via the secondary flares that is). There'd be no drivers attached directly to it after all and the weight difference should be significant. If it gives you any trouble transmitting vibration, a layer of rubber or foam on the back of it might take care of that.

A big plus of it is that it would take little time to try out compared to messing with wood.
Syn7 got part of its start from wanting to replicate the K-402 in wood.
A clever build from Oohms
Klipsch K402 replica build - DIY Audio Projects - StereoNET
shows how he used foam board for the secondary flare.

I've built the conical section to be able to attach such foam flares in the same way he did.
If i go that way....and probably should, as i already have the foam board from other projects..
I'm waffling re bendy board haha
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