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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

synergy.....Take #7
synergy.....Take #7
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Old 26th March 2020, 11:12 PM   #21
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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synergy.....Take #7
Quote:
Originally Posted by fluid View Post
Seems low for the tweeter throat but it does look a reflection null of some kind.
I'm kinda beginning to wonder why care about out of band nulls, if contained ...

Cause I really like steep xovers, which make out-of-band nulls less problematic.

If I want to cross higher it seems worth addressing, but otherwise i think it makes sense to just tame the null with enough EQ , so that a steep xoxer renders the null completely inconsequential.....

Whatcha think?
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Old 26th March 2020, 11:51 PM   #22
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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synergy.....Take #7
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Originally Posted by mark100 View Post
Thx xrk971 !

Interesting you played with hotdog shapes too ... i wanted to try such, but ran out of experimenting willpower/patience lol..

So the Heil is good to 600Hz? That's really cool and very enticing...
Click the image to open in full size.

Click the image to open in full size.

More info here:

ESS AMT-1 in my projects
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Old 26th March 2020, 11:59 PM   #23
bwaslo is offline bwaslo  United States
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Besides the performance, xrk971's horn has to be the coolest looking horn I've ever seen!
(not that my wife would let a pair of them sit in the living room for even a minute!)
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Old 27th March 2020, 06:51 AM   #24
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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Thanks, Bwaslo! Our wives have to put up with all of the rest of our gear already

I am lucky in that I have an audio lab in the basement which is totally messy and filled with gear, amps, speakers all under construction. I don’t get hassled as long as it stays there. If the speaker is finished and presentable it makes it to the upstairs.
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Old 27th March 2020, 03:31 PM   #25
augerpro is offline augerpro  United States
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I'm not clear on one point: did the mid tap placement on the wall vs corner smooth the response for both mid and coax, or just the mids?
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Old 27th March 2020, 03:42 PM   #26
wesayso is offline wesayso  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark100 View Post
So the Heil is good to 600Hz? That's really cool and very enticing...
With your SPL requirements? I doubt it .
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Old 27th March 2020, 05:32 PM   #27
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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Originally Posted by augerpro View Post
I'm not clear on one point: did the mid tap placement on the wall vs corner smooth the response for both mid and coax, or just the mids?
My call is that the mid tap placement improved mid response, and did not hurt coax response any more than corner ports did.

All the testing that led to those conclusions was done at fairly close range indoors...within 1m.
(It was about all i could do while letting shoulder surgery heal....)

This morning i was able to quickly measure some syn 7 polars at about 3m outdoors.
Worst waistbanding I've seen yet ! lol

So there are a few main possibilities to explore i think.
One is that the mid ports are causing it, (don't think so, but a possibility for sure)
or the lack of a secondary flare is causing it, (no doubt)
and/or the wider the dispersion pattern va any previous attempt is a factor. (good chance maybe).


I did notice before, on syns of 60x60 and 60x40 without secondary flares, that the tighter the pattern and the larger the horn, the less was the waistbanding.
That's why I suspect the wider 90x60 may be a contributing factor.

Meaurement conditions were very noisy this morning, so I didn't try to get driver section-by-section polars. That will help determine whats going on i think.

Frankly, the increased waistbanding was a surprise, because it's been the smoothest sounding synergy attempt 'out of the box' yet. (indoors)
I'm really beginning to think wider dispersion is simply easier to get right than narrow dispersion, in terms of overall sound and room integration.

The big 60x40 syn with secondary flare has an almost magic sound to it, but indoors it begs for sweet spot listening and too much fiddling with the tonality of individual tracks.
The new 90x60 syn7 has glorious clarity but not quite the magic sound. And pleasantly, i find i don't feel the need to make nearly as many track by track adjustments.
It's more livable really, especially at 45lbs !

Now, i just have to get to work on a detachable secondary flare, be it conical or tractrix.
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Old 27th March 2020, 05:34 PM   #28
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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Originally Posted by wesayso View Post
With your SPL requirements? I doubt it .
LoL Wesayso ! You're right

I did notice some of the Klipsch guys are double stacking the Heils to get the SPL bump.
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Old 27th March 2020, 05:44 PM   #29
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
Supersweet project, and great to see the other Heil projects underway...

Hey, if i want to add a tractrix secondary flare to this syn 7, do you have any pointers how to start?

I've considered foam board, but will probably go with bendy ply for strength...

I guess the first thing i need is to find a way how to lay out the tractrix curves and cuts...know of any some layout software ?...

I'm really 3D challenged...like i keep thanking Bill W...i simply could not do a syn without his program..or at least not without making a scrap pile of plywood as high as my house
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Old 27th March 2020, 06:04 PM   #30
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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Download the tractrix horn spreadsheet from Volvotreterís website.

I made a scale plot of the tractrix function (XY graphing software). I put that jpg image into CAD software as a template background. I then used a spline segment and hand fitted that to the jpg background. Then extruded that to get the curved wall. I intersected that with the top and bottom flat walls. Then I used the sheet metal unroll function to get a flat plan for cutting.

There is probably an easier way somewhere else but thatís what I did.

I recall seeing an horn designer package called ATH4 in the Multi-way forum. Maybe Hornresp May even do this automatically.

You can also scale my pdf design.

Presenting the Trynergy - a full range tractrix synergy.
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Last edited by xrk971; 27th March 2020 at 06:09 PM.
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