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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Working the crossover for better impedance
Working the crossover for better impedance
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Old 26th March 2020, 06:30 PM   #51
Kustomize123 is offline Kustomize123
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Originally Posted by Douglas Blake View Post
That is entirely possible... but... you still have red hot tweeters in that top octave. There isn't much musical energy up there and we're not used to hearing it as a distinct sound, so that could be very irritating and it could be masking the midrange, somewhat.

Remember the original XSim of that crossover? It wasn't pretty.

But hey, go for it... Moving the speakers around and running REW sweeps, is free.
That could be very much be an issue, it does make sense to me!

I will try to use the Denon EQ I have on my AVR, which has these values.

63 Hz / 125 Hz / 250 Hz / 500 Hz / 1 kHz / 2 kHz / 4 kHz / 8 kHz / 16 kHz


Right now its all flat, any idea which frequencies I should play with to understand the effect? From my understanding, I should bring down the 16khz down like 5-6 dbs? and perhaps raise everything from 125-till 2khz by 3db?
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Old 26th March 2020, 06:51 PM   #52
Douglas Blake is offline Douglas Blake  Canada
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The Denon should have an auto-correct function in it. Just set the test mic in your sweet spot and let it run.

That said... You really don't want to play with that while seeking the best speaker positions. You want your amps running flat. Move the speakers about an inch at a time... run a REW sweep, see what changes, then when you find the right direction, keep watching for when you go past it... be methodical, random doesn't work here.

Once you've found the right spot, do some measuring so you can put them back there if you ever need to move them for cleaning, etc.

Then, once you have them in their best spots, do two things ... first measure that they are equadistant from your sitting position and then measure they are at equal angles to your sitting position. If you can't achieve this, move your chair...

Then, finally let the Denon's auto correct run.
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Old 26th March 2020, 07:12 PM   #53
Kustomize123 is offline Kustomize123
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Okay that is some amazing guidelines for me to follow for next time, but for now...

Woah...I didn't move anything around, i just dropped the 16khz frequency down about 6db, and 1db drop on the 8k. And the vocals weren't congested anymore! I think you are right about the tweeter running way too hot covering the midrange possibly! Plus the fact my music type might be way too different for my speaker's design as I mostly listen to rock/hiphop/house electronic music.

But it did make a big difference!

I will follow your guidelines Douglas and keep going at it!

Now I have hope of fixing my speakers through crossover tweaks or a tweeter swap!


EDIT: Forgot to mention, I always run my amp's room correction, and it sounds TERRIBLE! I have even measured it on REW, it even measures way terrible! The Auddyssey that is praised is the newer XT32 version, mine is the simple XT, which is not that appreciated but for some setting levels/distances!

EDIT 2: In abit I am going to pull out my measuring gear.
Any advice on measurements with regards to smoothing/gating? And also, should I keep my speakers in their current placement? or should I move them to the middle of the room? I ask this because I will be making measurements in my listening position aswell..as mentioned under.

I am thinking of making measurements at 1 meter, tweeter axis, WITHOUT the new EQ, WITH the new EQ, and then with Audyssey auto correction.
Then I will make the same three measurements at my listening position.

Last edited by Kustomize123; 26th March 2020 at 07:22 PM. Reason: measurements
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Old 26th March 2020, 07:50 PM   #54
Douglas Blake is offline Douglas Blake  Canada
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Originally Posted by Kustomize123 View Post
I am thinking of making measurements at 1 meter, tweeter axis, WITHOUT the new EQ, WITH the new EQ, and then with Audyssey auto correction.
Then I will make the same three measurements at my listening position.
Leave your speakers in place ... if you are measuring the speakers themselves, set up about 1m away, on axis, with the mic centered between the upper woofer and tweeter. REW has a gated measurement in the RTA panel where you can narrow the "window" to exclude most room effects. But for most general purpose measurements the standard scan with "Psyacoustic" smoothing is just fine.

If you are measuring the room, put your mic in your sweet spot, with your speakers in place. Moving the speakers in this case totally defeats the idea of trying to chart what you are hearing.

For the difference you noticed ... Masking is not an uncommon phenomenon. Your ears tend to auto-adjust to the loudest sounds. When the sound balance is off, so is your hearing. Loud shrill sounds cover soft sounds... your midrange disappears. More than a few times I've given people "more bass" simply by putting a resistor in series with their tweeters...

Last edited by Douglas Blake; 26th March 2020 at 08:00 PM.
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Old 26th March 2020, 07:56 PM   #55
Kustomize123 is offline Kustomize123
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Okay so I just did some testing.

Here is the song I used. If someone else can play this on their system, and comment back, it would really help!

YouTube

The Weeknd - Alone Again

And this too.

YouTube

The Weeknd - After Hours

I don't listen to The Weeknd , and its not an issue if my speakers can't play these right. The thing is, this will probably help everyone understand my issue. Since my other music that I listen to, is probably more similar than not.


I just tested this on my speakers, even with the 16khz db'd down about 5b lower, I still couldn't manage to understand the first few lines at ALL.

Then I played this just now on my average budget cheap headphones of around 50 USD, and I can understand each and everything.


EDIT : Perfect Douglas, thankyou once again! So measuring is to be done between the tweeter and the woofer, not pointed exactly at the tweeter? I always measure pointed directly at the tweeter. I will keep this in mind and make my measurements!

Last edited by Kustomize123; 26th March 2020 at 08:06 PM.
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Old 26th March 2020, 08:10 PM   #56
Douglas Blake is offline Douglas Blake  Canada
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Originally Posted by Kustomize123 View Post
First you need to start with someone talking... general rule... get the voices right first.

Then you need a very clear and effortless singer with very simple instruments..
YouTube

Then finally an instrumental, listening for the clarity of basic instruments...
YouTube

Also make sure your choices aren't autotuned, compressed, quantized or synthetic... All these things reduce clarity. You want pure recordings of natural sounds, and that almost always sends you back to the 60s, 70s, or 80s for source material.

Last edited by Douglas Blake; 26th March 2020 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 26th March 2020, 08:24 PM   #57
Kustomize123 is offline Kustomize123
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I understand what you are trying to say. As the music I have linked, probably has every single thing you mentioned it should not have...

I just want to know if everyone's system faces the same problem with the song that I have linked, or is it just me? Are you all able to understand everything?

EDIT : Vocals/Voices sound extremely clear if I am listening to someone just talking, lets say its someone reviewing a product or something and they're just talking, EXTREMELY clear.

Last edited by Kustomize123; 26th March 2020 at 08:27 PM.
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Old 26th March 2020, 08:46 PM   #58
Douglas Blake is offline Douglas Blake  Canada
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Originally Posted by Kustomize123 View Post
I just want to know if everyone's system faces the same problem with the song that I have linked, or is it just me? Are you all able to understand everything?
Nope ... it's too compressed for that and a guy singing falsetto doesn't help.

Quote:
EDIT : Vocals/Voices sound extremely clear if I am listening to someone just talking, lets say its someone reviewing a product or something and they're just talking, EXTREMELY clear.
That's a start.

How'd you make out with my choices?
Did you hear Melanie overload the mic?

While we're at it... here's one of my favorite "turn it up" test pieces...
YouTube ... listen for the rotating speakers, the rivets in the cymbols and the undistorted guitar. Back when that song was new, I got noise complaints from 2 blocks away.

Last edited by Douglas Blake; 26th March 2020 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 26th March 2020, 08:49 PM   #59
Kustomize123 is offline Kustomize123
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I just listened to Melanie.
It was totally and perfectly clear throughout.

Overload the mic? What does that mean? I just heard her go super loud, and my speakers handled it very very well, it was really dynamic.
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Old 26th March 2020, 09:12 PM   #60
Douglas Blake is offline Douglas Blake  Canada
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Yep, that's Melanie ... but if you listen closely there are half a dozen spots where she gets loud enough to overload the mic... it sounds a bit like clipping, a rough edge on her voice. It only lasts a few seconds at a time, but it is there.

That's back when people still had talent

Last edited by AllenB; 26th March 2020 at 10:26 PM. Reason: Remove excess quoting
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