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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

(Beginner) An attempt to improve my speakers, help appreciated.
(Beginner) An attempt to improve my speakers, help appreciated.
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Old 14th February 2020, 06:11 PM   #11
jReave is offline jReave  Canada
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Also - about your existing tweeter.

The fact that it's known to blow could be inherent to the tweeter but it may also depend on the xo filter, ie. on the implementation. If the xo point is too low and/or if the xo slope isn't steep enough the same problems can happen. So it may be possible to make improvements with a re-designed xo. Or not. Could just be a cheap tweeter in need of replacement in the end.
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Old 14th February 2020, 06:16 PM   #12
lowmass is offline lowmass  United States
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1-get a measurement system and measure each speaker with stock crossover
2- then measure each drivers response in cabinet seperately without crossover connected.
3- now u have the info u need to even start thinking about what u might do

until u do this u really are shooting in the dark

my guess is that with a decent cheap tweeter and a complete crossover re design guided by the measurements, you likely could end up with a better sounding speaker thats about 3 db less sensitive than stock and what u learn following these simple rules will pay big dividends in the future. Keep it simple and you will not fall into chasing your tail

you would be surprised how good even cheap drivers can sound when all is balanced well and the experience of doing that is worth a bunch

Last edited by lowmass; 14th February 2020 at 06:42 PM.
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Old 14th February 2020, 07:36 PM   #13
system7 is offline system7  United Kingdom
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I've been reverse-engineering computers and loudspeakers for years.

I enjoy it.

Quote:
There are two PCB's, one for HF, one for LF.

The HF PCB has the following components:

1x CYC CD71 100V 100uF
1x CYC CD71 100V 5.6uF
1x CYC MKT J250V 4.7uF
1x Solid-Core Inductor 1.5mH 0.45 Ohm (Midrange, manufacturer says)
1x Air-Core Inductor 0.25mH 0.95 Ohm (Tweeter, manufacturer says)

The LF PCB has the following components:

1x CYC NP 100V 6,8uF
1x Solid-Core Inductor 3mH 0.48 Ohm (Woofers, manufacturer says)
1x 5W4R7J Resistor

The X-change terminal has the following components:

1x 5W2R2J Resistor
1x 5W1RJ Resistor
This is a WWMTM.
We also know we have two 4 ohm 5" mids in series. Making 8 ohms.
And two 8 ohm 8" woofers in parallel, making 4 ohms.
A 6 ohm 1" tweeter with an ohm or two of attenuation.

It's not going to be a million miles from this off-the-shelf crossover, except missing the 0.68mH mid rolloff:

HW 3/130 NG - 8 Ohm | Visaton

I think I'll just Boxsim this one with some similar drivers: Software | Visaton

Bass filter must be 3mH, with a 4.7R and 6.8uF shunt.
Tweeter must be 4.7uF and 0.25mH and 2 ohms resistor in front.
Mid filter must be 100uF with a 1.5mH and 5.6uF shunt.

We can do this!
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Old 14th February 2020, 08:08 PM   #14
Moondog55 is offline Moondog55  Australia
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First off try filling the midrange compartment with fibre, any fibre will do for the first experiment, even an old woollen jumper
Less damping means lower manufacturing cost. Most talk of and about wiring tends to snake oil after a while, what the manufacturer uses is probably fine. Wiring length inside a cabinet is short
XO values are probably correct and 100V capacitors mean that reasonable care has been taken Re quality but pictures of the actual XO would help. If these are for movies only then L&R quality on voice is less important as most dialogue comes from the centre speaker, what are the details of the centre speaker?
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Old 14th February 2020, 08:44 PM   #15
Vitus is offline Vitus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jReave View Post
If you're willing to learn, what you are proposing looks doable to me. This thread should help: So you want to design your own speakers from scratch

Probably most important is to learn how to properly take frequency and impedance measurements because if you can do this right, it's pretty easy for others to use those files and help you design the xo's.

For FR measurements - White paper: Accurate in-room frequency response measurements

How to find the relative acoustic centers is vital as well.

To start with, you can actually use an AV receiver's measurement mic with free REW software if your computer's soundcard allows it (mostly yes for older desktops but no for laptops - laptops usually require a separate soundcard). A better mic can be purchased later if desired.

For impedance DATS will certainly work but you can also use a little homemade jig with REW to get the job done as well.

Given all of that, I would indeed practice on your existing speakers and perhaps correct any glaring xo problems to start off with. You may actually be able to improve those quite a bit. Or maybe not. Regardless, you must have your woofers' FR and impedance measurements in the cabinets in order to work out any simulations with new drivers.

But you've got 13L for your mids to work in and that should be fine for 2 of the AC 130-MKII's. Trouble is that that driver's FR starts falling fairly early at about 1600Hz which doesn't leave a lot of room to play with at the xo point. I might instead choose the AC-130F1 which has a more extended FR and should be easier to work with. It's also used in the well known Continuum speakers by Jeff Bagby.

Potentially, your biggest problem is matching the existing woofer's sensitivity with the new MTM you want to build. Likely though that if your current speaker's sensitivity is below 90dB, that shouldn't be a problem. More than likely, you'll instead have to pad 2 of those mids in parallel down a fair amount to match the woofers instead.

Personally for this kind of learning project, I might choose less expensive drivers but I'm assuming you are looking at the AC's because they will fit your existing cutouts. There are ways to possibly get around that but if your budget allows for the AC's you are looking at, well then by all means proceed. With the caveat of course, it's always best to simulate the whole speaker response before buying any new drivers.

I love you!

Very good documents, I'll certainly take a read and come back with more knowledge on the subject, thank you.


I won't spend time building custom tools and/or microphones, I'd much rather spend the time on correcting the speakers and putting the time where it matters the most, I can take a bit of money spending on this project, not the biggest concern.

My focus is on DATS V3 and UMIK-1, I'll definitely need these to measure the woofers like you mentioned, as I don't really plan to replace these as the dimensions of these drivers are very hard to come by in the aftermarket.

I had an idea once of making an MDF speaker spacer with my router, or even using 3D CAD to create a drawing and send the files off to waterjet cutting, I've done this with an archway for a door/wall once, super easy, but then I'd have to go down to a 7" woofer, I think I'll definitely measure what I have to start with, as they might very well be up to the task.

The thing that worries me though is that the magnet of the 8" woofers are 100mm, much the same diameter as the AC-130F1's or MK2's, it makes me doubt the 'woofer' capability of the speakers, especially considering I'm sealing the cabinet and these are tuned for the vented operation.

Measurements are key, I'll follow up on that, for sure.



Again, money is not the biggest concern here, the speaker themselves are $300USD alone, spending another $300USD or so could still yield a better speaker than what's available for purchase, very interesting for sure.

And you're correct - Aurum Cantus is the perfect match, physically.


Thanks man, I appreciate your post!

P.S. Please scroll down and have a look at the very last quote in this post, a forum member on here asked for which center speaker I am matching these speakers too as the whole project is targeted for home cinema, your information and knowledge could be very useful there, it's the next speaker up in line for improvement!


Quote:
Originally Posted by jReave View Post
Also - about your existing tweeter.

The fact that it's known to blow could be inherent to the tweeter but it may also depend on the xo filter, ie. on the implementation. If the xo point is too low and/or if the xo slope isn't steep enough the same problems can happen. So it may be possible to make improvements with a re-designed xo. Or not. Could just be a cheap tweeter in need of replacement in the end.
Yes, could be both, but then again why would the manufacturer design a bad crossover when the speaker has had several revisions up until now, the speaker series has been around for years.

I think it's more about the tweeter itself being limited by the budget, basically they must of thought the tweeter was up to the task, to moderate listening levels - and called it a day.

I mean, who would buy a speaker for $300USD with the aim of listening to reference levels?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lowmass View Post
1-get a measurement system and measure each speaker with stock crossover
2- then measure each drivers response in cabinet seperately without crossover connected.
3- now u have the info u need to even start thinking about what u might do

until u do this u really are shooting in the dark

my guess is that with a decent cheap tweeter and a complete crossover re design guided by the measurements, you likely could end up with a better sounding speaker thats about 3 db less sensitive than stock and what u learn following these simple rules will pay big dividends in the future. Keep it simple and you will not fall into chasing your tail

you would be surprised how good even cheap drivers can sound when all is balanced well and the experience of doing that is worth a bunch

Noted, I will take the list going forward when doing my measurements, thank you.

A question though, I take it you're trying to tell me that a less sensitive speaker sounds better, why is that? Sorry for the noob question.




Yes, otherwise I agree, knowledge and smartness is key, expensive is not always best, very much on point here.

About the drivers I chose, I basically picked them because they fit the measurements of my cabinet without any modifications, apart from some mounting holes having to be re-drilled, some cutouts made larger for the magnets, but I have a router, no worries.

Thanks for posting!

Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
I've been reverse-engineering computers and loudspeakers for years.

I enjoy it.

This is a WWMTM.
We also know we have two 4 ohm 5" mids in series. Making 8 ohms.
And two 8 ohm 8" woofers in parallel, making 4 ohms.
A 6 ohm 1" tweeter with an ohm or two of attenuation.

It's not going to be a million miles from this off-the-shelf crossover, except missing the 0.68mH mid rolloff:

HW 3/130 NG - 8 Ohm | Visaton

I think I'll just Boxsim this one with some similar drivers: Software | Visaton

Bass filter must be 3mH, with a 4.7R and 6.8uF shunt.
Tweeter must be 4.7uF and 0.25mH and 2 ohms resistor in front.
Mid filter must be 100uF with a 1.5mH and 5.6uF shunt.

We can do this!

I'm not getting it, you basically came up with the same crossover as the one that's in place right now, by using similar drivers in BoxSim?

What's a 'shunt', is it the same as a slope generated by a capacitor?

You never tried to BoxSim with my suggested midranges and tweeter?

Thanks!


Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
First off try filling the midrange compartment with fibre, any fibre will do for the first experiment, even an old woollen jumper
Less damping means lower manufacturing cost. Most talk of and about wiring tends to snake oil after a while, what the manufacturer uses is probably fine. Wiring length inside a cabinet is short
XO values are probably correct and 100V capacitors mean that reasonable care has been taken Re quality but pictures of the actual XO would help. If these are for movies only then L&R quality on voice is less important as most dialogue comes from the centre speaker, what are the details of the centre speaker?

Very interesting topic you made, about filling the compartement completely with fibre, I have a question about this and it concerns filling the MTM enclosure when the drivers are open-back?

Wouldn't it cause interference with the spider and cone (possibly voice coil) during operation?

For this very reason I had original plans of just using dampening materials along the sides of the cabinet internals.


About wires, it just feels good to have them replaced I guess, like a quality assurance, but most likely snake oil, yes, as an electrician I would almost certainly agree, however there are such variables involved with creating audio and sound that one might always wonder what's best and what's overkill.

I have quality wires outside the cabinet already, I will most likely fall into the pit and spend money on quality wires internally as well, so there you go, we live in a materialist society.


I don't see how a simple picture of the crossover can make someone figure out how it's wired, or to what use such a picture might be, but I could certainly snap a picture and have it your way, expect it tomorrow, I'll buzz you.


You make another very interesting topic about what center speaker I plan to match these speakers to, and that's the next speaker in line for an improvement (as per my original plans).

You see this center speaker is matched to the front towers from the manufacturer, it consists of the same tweeter and midranges as the fronts, added to that is two woofers that serves the lower frequencies in the cabinet.

I wasn't planning on discussing that speaker until I've settled with the fronts, but what the heck, might be better of planning/investigating/measuring this speaker too and see what drivers might be of good use if deciding that a driver replacement is the key for an improved sound.



I've taken center speaker apart as well, but I did not investigate the crossover as I did with the fronts today.

By eyeballing, the woofers taking care of the lower frequencies look EXACTLY like the midrange speakers, exept from the dust cap which is larger than on the midranges, the voice coil, cone, surrounds, magnet, well - everything else is exactly the same.

I think there's just marketing going on here, because the manufacturer offered a center speaker without the additional low frequency woofers before this center speaker got introduced.

Old center speaker:
Click the image to open in full size.

New center speaker (the one I got, and plan to improve):
Click the image to open in full size.

Of course, they might of fiddled around in the crossover and introduced a dedicated speaker for the low frequencies, but to which extent is there an improvement over the old design?

The new design also implements two ventilation ports on the rear.

It might of been tuned to a lower frequency, and the addition of two extra drivers is an addition in dB output?


How exactly is more bass achieved?


My intent was not to discuss this speaker until later, but there you go, we might as well start now.

Thanks for asking, very interesting from your side!

Last edited by Vitus; 14th February 2020 at 08:48 PM.
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Old 14th February 2020, 08:58 PM   #16
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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Can you post a photograph of the woofer taken out of cabinet from the magnet side?
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Old 14th February 2020, 09:20 PM   #17
Moondog55 is offline Moondog55  Australia
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Adding more damping material will have no effect on the driver unless you use expanding foam [ joke] but it will have an effect on the midrange performance, how much effect you can't tell but expect a little more clarity. Adding more stuffing is a simple cheap tweak. Actual pictures of the XO can tell us a lot about the quality of the components Photos of the box construction can tell us if there have been shortcuts taken with bracing and sealing although from the drawings it seems to me this has been well thought out.
From my perspective those centre speakers have the usual but incorrect orientation and for HT all speakers in the system should use the same [ or very similar] construction and components and "Yes" tweeters are often the weak link in value for money systems and as already mentioned a tweeter upgrade might be your best value although you may want to try a conjugate Zobel addition first, such small additional circuits often help a cheap tweeter
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Old 14th February 2020, 10:19 PM   #18
jReave is offline jReave  Canada
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Re your woofers - forget for a moment about the size of the magnets. It's how they sound that matters. If you are happy with how they sound sealed then there is no need to change them. On the other hand, if you feel there is room for improvement....... maybe you want to replace those as well.

Can't find a size match? Well then it's maybe time to think about cutting the old front baffles right off the old speakers and putting on new ones. That should allow you more freedom in driver choices as well.

The problem with an MTM style CC is that you get comb filtering in the horizontal plane. This means the FR around the xo point is going to vary (sometimes dramatically) depending on where you are sitting on the couch. If you happen to be the only person doing the listening then this might not be such a big deal.

To avoid the problem in the 1st place, you need to go WT/MW where the tweeter and the mid are one above the other. The problem with that is that it means a higher speaker height which can make placement more of an issue. And for you, you'd need to build a whole new CC cabinet to make that work. Using the same drivers as your front mains is usually a good idea too, as Moondog55 suggested.

You're going to have so much to figure out with your towers, I would suggest worrying about the CC is best left until later. Your choice of course.
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Old 15th February 2020, 03:04 PM   #19
Vitus is offline Vitus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lojzek View Post
Can you post a photograph of the woofer taken out of cabinet from the magnet side?

Sure!

I hope I did the right thing, many images to cover all your wishes!


http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG

http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG

http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG

http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG

http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG

http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG

http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG

http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG

http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG


Anything worth mentioning?

I did weigh the woofer, it measured up to 1.7kg, more than I expected.

Magnet diameter 100mm.


Thank you!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
Adding more damping material will have no effect on the driver unless you use expanding foam [ joke] but it will have an effect on the midrange performance, how much effect you can't tell but expect a little more clarity. Adding more stuffing is a simple cheap tweak. Actual pictures of the XO can tell us a lot about the quality of the components Photos of the box construction can tell us if there have been shortcuts taken with bracing and sealing although from the drawings it seems to me this has been well thought out.
From my perspective those centre speakers have the usual but incorrect orientation and for HT all speakers in the system should use the same [ or very similar] construction and components and "Yes" tweeters are often the weak link in value for money systems and as already mentioned a tweeter upgrade might be your best value although you may want to try a conjugate Zobel addition first, such small additional circuits often help a cheap tweeter

Thanks for sharing your experience, I found a rather good dampening material that I'm considering covering all blank areas that are missing dampening currently, your advice on more midrange clarity with added dampening is nice to hear.

For woofers I guess you add dampening to decrease "boominess/bloating/mudding".


I took some photos of the crossover/crossovers, HF/LF cards, see below:


HF Filter:


http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG


http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG


http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG


http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG


http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG




LF Filter:


http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG


http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG


http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG


Here is a photo of the insides of the cabinet and the bracing, you've already seen the drawings, unfortunately I didn't remember to take photos of the inside of the cabinet, fortunately however - someone else uploaded a great photo that might be useful, see below:


http://www.popular-hifi.com/projects...85ex_bild7.jpg



I know a center channel should be exactly the same as the F/R channels in a home theater setup, but this is in a living room and I'm unable to put a speaker that big behind the screen, that's why I purchased the center speaker I mentioned.


I can't do magic, but I could certainly possibly improve the performance out of it.


Thanks!





Quote:
Originally Posted by jReave View Post
Re your woofers - forget for a moment about the size of the magnets. It's how they sound that matters. If you are happy with how they sound sealed then there is no need to change them. On the other hand, if you feel there is room for improvement....... maybe you want to replace those as well.

Can't find a size match? Well then it's maybe time to think about cutting the old front baffles right off the old speakers and putting on new ones. That should allow you more freedom in driver choices as well.

The problem with an MTM style CC is that you get comb filtering in the horizontal plane. This means the FR around the xo point is going to vary (sometimes dramatically) depending on where you are sitting on the couch. If you happen to be the only person doing the listening then this might not be such a big deal.

To avoid the problem in the 1st place, you need to go WT/MW where the tweeter and the mid are one above the other. The problem with that is that it means a higher speaker height which can make placement more of an issue. And for you, you'd need to build a whole new CC cabinet to make that work. Using the same drivers as your front mains is usually a good idea too, as Moondog55 suggested.

You're going to have so much to figure out with your towers, I would suggest worrying about the CC is best left until later. Your choice of course.

You triggered a very interesting idea in my head, about removing the current baffles and manufacturing my own ones, but that idea came to an end when I further investigated the possibilities with my center channel.


You see, I have Dolby Atmos upfiring speakers too, and these use a bigger tweeter than the one I have been looking at, and the one that's currently in my F/R channel speakers, it's 30mm instead of 25mm, also uses a waveguide, which I think could further improve the off-axis response from my towers and center channel.


I opened my center channel up and unfortunately there's not enough room to place the midrange/woofers more closely to the outer edges of the cabinet (with a new baffle) to accomodate for the larger tweeter that is 115mm instead of the original 100mm.


So the idea of creating my own baffles sort of died on me, I see no point when I can't fit the drivers that I want to, instead I'll just have to refer to the 100mm limitation of the tweeter and focus on finding the best possible (SB Acoustics SB26STAC-C000-4) and narrow down my area of improvement to the midrange and center channel woofers.


I'll have to measure my current F/R channel woofers and see how they perform, I have a very difficult time finding a replacement for these, but then again, as some of you have mentioned, maybe they don't need replacing, I could just optimize the cabinet and crossover and maybe they'll be more than fine, really.


UMIK-1 and DATS V3 is a must.


About comb filtering and the center channel, yes, I know, but it's unavoidable, I don't have room for any other center channel, and I can't really live without it, sort of a tricky situation, I don't think I'll complain, in either case.


All systems have their limitations and constraints, these are what ultimately forms the limits of these sorts of projects.

I think I'll just leave the CC as is, just change the drivers if it looks promising.


Building a new cabinets will have to be the next project I guess.


Thanks a lot!

Last edited by Vitus; 15th February 2020 at 03:06 PM.
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Old 15th February 2020, 03:12 PM   #20
Vitus is offline Vitus
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Quote:
Originally Posted by system7 View Post
I think I'll just Boxsim this one with some similar drivers: Software | Visaton

Bass filter must be 3mH, with a 4.7R and 6.8uF shunt.
Tweeter must be 4.7uF and 0.25mH and 2 ohms resistor in front.
Mid filter must be 100uF with a 1.5mH and 5.6uF shunt.

We can do this!



Steve, check out the crossfilter (HF/LF cards) of my speakers below.


How did you wire yours to come up with the same result as the manufacturer, can you draw a schematic and show me?




HF Filter:

http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG

http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG

http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG

http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG

http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG


LF Filter:

http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG

http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG

http://www.bilddump.se/bilder/202002...195.138.78.JPG




Thank you!
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