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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

12" & Horn 2-way build
12" & Horn 2-way build
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Old 9th January 2020, 01:19 PM   #21
Think is offline Think  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by benno25 View Post
Thanks guys.

Current speaker I have are 2x 8" and just don't have the kick I'm after.
...........
A ported design as most pro audio woofers seem to be more suited to this alignment and have much more output in the 100-200Hz region. My only concern was whether the extra group delay would cause issue when integrating with my subs. FYI my subs are sealed and will be placed throughout the room to give best frequency response in main listening positions
............
Size of the drivers does nothing to the sound of the kick-drum.
I wish you could hear my tiny 2x3.3"sealed +mini planar tops supported with 2x 8" or a 12" sealed sub........ While I made this little system for the great mids and highs, most people first comment on the great bass.
A bass note's harmonics are played through the mains/tops and it might well be that as we hear much better in that region, that they define the sound of bass more then we know or talk about.

I remember reading about someone making a 3kHz EQ adjustment to alter the sound of the kick........ might make more sense then I thought at the time of reading it.


The room, speaker positioning, crossover 'point'(region) and phase do have a big influence in the kick (and overall SQ).


Speaker positioning rule is: place speakers less then 1/4th or more then 2 wavelengths of the frequencies they emit from each other and half of that to boundaries.


If you have an 'average' (not very big) living room;

put the sub(s) in a (1) corner (driver close to a wall), raise the x-over to 125-200hz (depending on the height of your room and distance between the mains) place the mains closer to the walls and the kick is probably back.
If the bass is to dry, pull one of the subs out of the corner towards the mains until you like the sound; bass will fatten.

Make sure that the distances from the woofer to all walls, (including floor and ceiling) are all different and no multiples of each other.
Ported mains, tuned at or just below xover point give phase problems. Ported in general sounds less tight, so go sealed especially with your sealed subs. (plug the ports of your current mains with a towel to test)

Have a look at (and listen to, if possible) a 'classic' fullrange 3 way pa speaker: 12"/15"-6"-1" horn.
They sound much better then the 2 way competition in de mids. Especially when the volume goes up. Smaller drivers are lighter, have wider off axis response and thus can play with more detail and cross higher.
The lower the CD horn can play, the more you miss at the upper end. (look at off axis response above 10kHz: often laser beam like narrow.
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Old 9th January 2020, 02:13 PM   #22
kipman725 is offline kipman725  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think View Post
Have a look at (and listen to, if possible) a 'classic' fullrange 3 way pa speaker: 12"/15"-6"-1" horn.
They sound much better then the 2 way competition in de mids. Especially when the volume goes up. Smaller drivers are lighter, have wider off axis response and thus can play with more detail and cross higher.
The lower the CD horn can play, the more you miss at the upper end. (look at off axis response above 10kHz: often laser beam like narrow.
I would strongly agree that when playing at high volume 3 ways are superior but its not the case that all horns that play low have poor HF dispersion. Its also not the case that the compression drivers exit diameter always limits HF dispersion. My understanding is that it would if the wave at the throat was plane wave but this is often far from true and that if the wave is instead shaped into a circular cap high frequency dispersion is much better than the plane wave case. This is not part of the horn design but the design of the phase plug of the compression driver that influences this. Diffraction whether intentional or not also almost always occurring. If we look at this polar data from a k402 with 4592ND (2" throat) we see if has wide dispersion with a minimum of ~60 degrees:
Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 9th January 2020, 03:25 PM   #23
Think is offline Think  Netherlands
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90 degrees narrowing to 60 degrees is allready 1/3 less in overall output mostly in the indirect sound.

And then have a look at the vertical dispersion....... if you can find any as they often look horrible and even more narrowing at the top like 10 degrees, much like a line tweeter like a planar, amt or ribbon.


There might be a few (often expensive) exceptions, but they all have to work with(in) the same physics. I don't know about them and I am no horn expert.

//Edit: have a look at the bottom graph of the ($10) mini planar I mentioned in my previous post: https://www.parts-express.com/pedocs...ifications.pdf And that extends to 40kHz and is the result of it's minimal width. I could eq the overal output but it sounds just right sloping down like it is.
For anyone wanting to use these; minimal xover for these is 5kHz as they distort lower.
And the 3.3" (€10 at Thomann) drivers: FRS 8 M - 8 Ohm | Visaton again look at the bottom graph.

Last edited by Think; 9th January 2020 at 03:39 PM.
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Old 9th January 2020, 03:39 PM   #24
kipman725 is offline kipman725  United Kingdom
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That polar map is exceptional good, going down to 60 degrees is a small anomaly compared to a typical constant directivity horn, I challenge you to find better especially over such a wide range. The K402 is also good in vertical:
Click the image to open in full size. (scale should be degrees not dB)
I'm not saying that such performance is common but it is possible. Many people have told me that the directivity of compression drivers is constrained by the exit diameter as if it where a vibrating piston but as you can see from these results that's incorrect.
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Old 9th January 2020, 05:32 PM   #25
Think is offline Think  Netherlands
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That indeed looks much better then most if not all I have seen.

Professional Theater 2-Way Speakers - Premium Cinema Audio | Klipsch
Have you seen their size? No need for a separate mid driver.
Anyone an idea of cost?
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Old 9th January 2020, 05:58 PM   #26
mlee is offline mlee  Canada
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Originally Posted by kipman725 View Post
There is also the other criteria to keep acoustic sources within 1/4 wavelength so they constructively superposition throughout all positions which i calculated to result in a crossover <1147Hz.
1147 wavelength is 0.3 Meters
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Old 9th January 2020, 06:23 PM   #27
mlee is offline mlee  Canada
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Originally Posted by Think View Post
Anyone an idea of cost?
I looked into this a few months back to see if I could snag a pair (K402) and on some message boards they mentioned you'd have to buy the horn with compression driver. Also you'd have to specially request a pair. I don't have the link on hand but I believe it was close to $600 per horn+comp.
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Old 9th January 2020, 09:24 PM   #28
Think is offline Think  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by mlee View Post
1147 wavelength is 0.3 Meters
= 12" driver
That is if you want the widest vertical dispersion. If you cross higher you get vertical off axis narrowing (lobes), but only in 1 direction with M&T
With MTM you get the narrowing both ways. I use this to match the vertical dispersion of the used tweeter at x-over 'point'.

Thx, for the price indication mlee. +shipping (they are huge), import duties and tax about 1k each...
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Old 9th January 2020, 10:36 PM   #29
kipman725 is offline kipman725  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlee View Post
1147 wavelength is 0.3 Meters
of course, my mistake I had unity horns on the mind. Spacing up to a wavelength is OK as long as the appropriate phase shift is applied. Still don't want to go over that frequency!
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Old 9th January 2020, 10:39 PM   #30
kipman725 is offline kipman725  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Think View Post
= 12" driver
Thx, for the price indication mlee. +shipping (they are huge), import duties and tax about 1k each...
you could make your own:
Klipsch K402 replica build - DIY Audio Projects - StereoNET
tbh you could get most of the performance from just a dual flare conical.
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