Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Can compression drivers sound "high end" home fi ? Vortex 15 ?
Can compression drivers sound "high end" home fi ? Vortex 15 ?
Can compression drivers sound "high end" home fi ? Vortex 15 ? Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 30th December 2019, 01:44 PM   #11
homebuilder is offline homebuilder  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Default Vortex 15" coax

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlee View Post
Don't get me wrong. I do have better speakers, but I've not had better coaxials. If you are used to perfect treble and perfect midrange you will be dissipointed as these are not the last word or holy grail in speakers and I don't want to oversell them. They have their coaxial compromises but if space demands it they are great option.

If u try hard you could get better results with a very well designed horned 2-way speaker. But everything will have to be very good and taken care of correctly. Crossover diffraction and driver choice. Also the package will be 2 times as large so depends on your goals.
mlee: We currently have excellent, high end monitors in this room, along with multiple separate subs. The monitors happen to have coaxial mid/tweeter. I want to move them out of that room because they don't fit with the aesthetics of the room. This isn't a WAF issue, they just look out of place, and I have a better place to go with them in the house.

I love the idea of a simple, hidden system, and the Vortex looks like a great idea. If I cut big holes in our wall, and flush mount them, there is no going back, and they will stay with the house. When I was young, my Dad built an entire system into the wall separating our living room room from a hallway, with access to the rear of the gear from the hallway. It was admired by all who saw it. It had large speakers, and tube gear. (brand unknown)

I used to sit for hours and hours and do nothing but listen to my equipment. Now, I turn it on, and walk all over the place while listening. I sit down when some of my favorites start playing, and then get right back up again.

The coax ticks off a lot of boxes for me, but only if flush mounted in a wall. If a speaker were to be out in the room, possibly an open baffle with a very simple design. No monkey coffins. If the room would allow it, I'd build in corner-horns, but I don't have a single corner that isn't either a glass wall, window in corner, bookshelves, fireplace, outside door, etc. Worse, often more than one of the above in each location.
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2019, 03:16 PM   #12
Brinkman is offline Brinkman  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oakland, CA
Can compression drivers sound "high end" home fi ? Vortex 15 ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by homebuilder View Post
Brinkman: That was a pretty good endorsement of the Vortex by mlee. Have you also considered the 12"? For the small additional price, I ruled that out in favor of the slightly more efficient 15".
.
I prefer the measured frequency response, polars, pattern control and efficiency of the 15Ē as well as what I mentioned earlier, the proximity to Tannoy Monitor Golds used at Abbey Road.

I asked Erich about the flat packs and he posted that the cabinet company that makes them for him has been busy with other clients, thus the delay. Iíve corresponded enough with Erich to know thereís always a good reason behind his offerings being unavailable.

I expect the waveguides will also be back in stock sometime in 2020 but thatís just a guess.
  Reply With Quote
Old 30th December 2019, 06:48 PM   #13
mlee is offline mlee  Canada
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Quote:
Originally Posted by homebuilder View Post
...The coax ticks off a lot of boxes for me, but only if flush mounted in a wall. If a speaker were to be out in the room, possibly an open baffle with a very simple design. No monkey coffins....
Cool! Maybe we'll get some cool pics when its complete?
__________________
Think before you speaker!
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/full...bac25-4-a.html
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st December 2019, 12:59 AM   #14
Brinkman is offline Brinkman  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oakland, CA
Can compression drivers sound "high end" home fi ? Vortex 15 ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by homebuilder View Post
Brinkman, like me is waiting on the flat packs to arrive at DIYSG. Coincidentally, yesterday I scoped out a pair of super heavy older oak file cabinets at a local Goodwill, made out of thick plywood. I'm going back to pick up the pair for $40, pull the drawers out, and glue in some corner blocks and dowels for bracing. 18-19"w by 26"d by 33"h exterior dimensions. Should make a good pair of test cabinets for some project. They are in really good shape.
From the Vortex thread (the cabinet for the 15” is on the left);
Click the image to open in full size.
Quote:
That enclosure for the Vortex-15 is 17" wide x 44" tall x 18.5" deep. I used two 4" ports 4" long (flared ones parts express sells) on the rear of the enclosure which tunes it to ~32hz. Driver center is 10.75" down from the top.
I wouldn’t mind using a passive radiator vs ports but it’s not a big issue for me
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st December 2019, 02:17 AM   #15
homebuilder is offline homebuilder  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Default Vortex 15.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlee View Post
Cool! Maybe we'll get some cool pics when its complete?
Mlee: Certainly! However, if it is a truly stealthy installation, there would be very little to look at! I'm mulling over ideas about how to mount the drivers, and what to use to cover them. If it is a woven grille-cloth, I'd like to find something that looks vintage.

Some of the house cold air returns used a perforated aluminum sheet with a unique design, which would be interesting, but would probably negatively affect sound. I'll have to study that issue.

Brinkman:; I've been wondering when Erich would get some more of those waveguides in. What is the issue that they cannot get them? I'd love to hear the waveguide for the Titan.

Have you seen the 15" buyout woofers in person? They are beasts! I'm thinking of buying another pair.
  Reply With Quote
Old 31st December 2019, 02:03 PM   #16
Brinkman is offline Brinkman  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Oakland, CA
Can compression drivers sound "high end" home fi ? Vortex 15 ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by homebuilder View Post
Brinkman:; I've been wondering when Erich would get some more of those waveguides in. What is the issue that they cannot get them? I'd love to hear the waveguide for the Titan.
The best answer to that question is in a December 1 post by Erich at the AVS forum:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
More of all sizes were ordered and should be here in December. This took a while and the explanation is below. Some people in this thread have known about most of this stuff and I've done my best to keep things going without allowing the design to get stolen. I've also done my best to continue offering cheaper kits using them.

Keep in mind that the SEOS project for just the waveguides alone has cost around $150k. After this huge 10 year project there are about 8 reviews on all the waveguides combined. Because the waveguides rarely got ordered or reviewed by themselves, when quantities got low, I put the remainder aside to be used with the kits. It made the most sense to me because that's how they pretty much always got ordered. There have been people contact me needing just the waveguides and I have shipped some out. I have no personal gain by hoarding them.


There are multiple issues that have come up that I haven't talked about in regards to this whole project. Some have been ongoing.

One is that there have been multiple companies try to copy the SEOS waveguide design or speakers that use the waveguide. A couple are not in the US, two are that I know of. One of the companies is a bigger fairly well known company on the west coast. I won't go into details about the other company because I believe that one is no longer an issue. The first company basically told me they were going to copy the design and use it in commercial speaker. I talked to the actual owner on the phone to explain the SEOS group project and told them I would be sure to let everyone know that they stole this from the DIY community and we couldn't wait to explain it on their Facebook page and as many forums as we could. That was about a year or so ago. I took the waveguides out of stock then and figured if they wanted to copy them, it will at least cost them two full kits to do so. At that point the quantity of SEOS-12's from the original group buy was already getting low, so it made sense to take them out of stock anyway so the kits could continue to be ordered. As mentioned, very few SEOS waveguides ever got ordered by themselves, so I didn't think it was a big deal either way.


So here's the issue with their replacements: And this is pretty much the case with every item on the site, including kits. Example - if you buy an item for $50 and sell it for $55 you don't get enough money back to reorder......until that item is nearly depleted. That's why some kits go out of stock for months. If a run of SEOS-12's cost $23k and they're sold at $28 each, then they can't be reordered with that same initial money until 820 are sold.

Another problem has to deal with shipping costs. When the SEOS-12 was first done they were shipped on a container with other parts that Bill Waslo and I had tested samples of, so a shipping container made it worthwhile and shipping averaged out okay. But shipping pallets of SEOS-12's would be very expensive due to the smaller number that can fit on a pallet versus the cost to ship a pallet. So because the SEOS-12 from the original group buy wasn't getting ordered very much anyway, I made a decision to hold off reordering until the SEOS-10 and SEOS-15 got low enough to justify reordering all sizes to ship in a container.

That's why the SEOS-10,12, and 15 have been out of stock for a while.
  Reply With Quote
Old 1st January 2020, 05:41 AM   #17
fishball79 is online now fishball79  Singapore
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Sunny Isle Singapura
Send a message via MSN to fishball79
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flaxxer View Post
Can they sound as good as a Hiquifon, or an AirCirc, etc ?
Tried a SEOS15 + B&C DE250 + AE TD15M (design courtesy of bwaslo, thanks!) when I had several high end home audio speakers that had Scanspeak 9900 revelator tweeters and SB Satori ring radiator.

The DE250 sounded effortless but it was by NO MEANS high fidelity in the highs.

After chatting with pos, I jumped the gun onto a beryllium compression driver with another waveguide. The JBL 2435HPL matched to the JBL M2.

There was no going back, this was a whole 'nother level of fidelity transparent where the driver imparts nothing to the sound and reveals everything about the recording.

Silk dome tweeters now sounded like it has a flapping like distortion. I could only tolerate ring radiators, SS 9900 and the original Esotar. These arent as good as the JBL 2435, just merely tolerable.

I also sold my GPA 604 as whilst they shine with specific albums that were clearly mastered on them as it made no sense to keep 2 when the M2/2435/TD15M (and later SBP15) combo was far superior.

The cloest to this in the form of a coaxial are the Radian ones where you can upgrade to a beryllium diaphragm. Havent heard these though.
__________________
C h r i s
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd January 2020, 03:09 PM   #18
homebuilder is offline homebuilder  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Default Vortex

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brinkman View Post
The best answer to that question is in a December 1 post by Erich at the AVS forum:
Brinkman: I had not seen that post by Erich. What a shame, but that is the nature of dealing with unscrupulous businesses. (worldwide) I hope he can work through those issues and continue to offer excellent and innovative products and services.
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd January 2020, 06:25 PM   #19
badman is offline badman  United States
diyAudio Member
 
badman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Ashland, MA
Quote:
Originally Posted by homebuilder View Post
Brinkman: I had not seen that post by Erich. What a shame, but that is the nature of dealing with unscrupulous businesses. (worldwide) I hope he can work through those issues and continue to offer excellent and innovative products and services.
Yeah, the man has undertaken a ridiculous amount of work on behalf of this community. Many people like him get fed up and jack prices through the roof to start profiting from their work more, but he has kept prices very reasonable.

Not sure why anyone would need to knock off the WG. It's not that hard to come up with a design that performs. While some like to think of horns as unique designs they're really just a continuum and visually similar (to a trained eye that knows how to interpret profiles/diffraction sources, etc) horns/waveguides are generally very similar in performance.

Edit: That sounds like I underappreciate good designs. Not at all the case. It takes a lot of work to refine the last 0.5% into the design but in practice many of those last few % that we chase are pretty hard to notice, particularly for untrained listeners (most of the audio community).
__________________
"The dawn of Bose created the "Man Cave" and reduced testoterone levels worldwide by 18.5 per cent" Peteleoni

Last edited by badman; 2nd January 2020 at 06:27 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd January 2020, 02:55 AM   #20
homebuilder is offline homebuilder  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Default Vortex 12 or 15

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brinkman View Post
The best answer to that question is in a December 1 post by Erich at the AVS forum:
Brinkman: I picked up my thrift store cabinets. Better than I thought at first....but just a bit smaller than my "guess". Inside dimensions 14" wide, 22" deep, 27" high. One inch plywood on all sides, rabbeted! There is a 3" plinth on the bottom, so overall height is 32". The front is 2 drawers, so will have to make a baffle, of course. The drawers are 1/2" and 3/8" plywood, so even that can be recycled. I've rarely seen 1" plywood. This stuff appears to be from the 70's, looks like birch ply.

I'm going to take another look at the Vortex 12, just for fun. That wasn't part of the plan, but I didn't expect to run in to this bargain.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Can compression drivers sound "high end" home fi ? Vortex 15 ?Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
"cheap" compression drivers suitable for a classic 3-way horn system? freddi Multi-Way 8 2nd September 2018 10:28 PM
High performance 1" Compression drivers/waveguides for HiFi Loudspeaker Project darkmatter Multi-Way 1 13th January 2018 05:41 PM
1" compression drivers with 2" diaphragms 454Casull Multi-Way 24 9th August 2009 05:19 PM
Keele, D. (2004) "Maximum efficiency of compression drivers" svenr Multi-Way 3 28th October 2007 03:03 PM
Using "high-end" car subs for home? mazeroth Subwoofers 21 25th August 2004 02:39 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 02:16 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 15.00%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2020 diyAudio
Wiki