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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Nexus - World's Easiest Controlled Directivity Loudspeaker
Nexus - World's Easiest Controlled Directivity Loudspeaker
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Old 23rd December 2019, 09:20 PM   #11
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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Nice work, Patrick! I listened to the videos and it sounds great.

I think you are on to something here. I was looking at a conventional (about 1in deep and maybe 7in dia) dome tweeter waveguide the other day and was thinking of cutting small holes in it and adding some mids.

I know your 3D printer is an indispensable part of your design process. However, I have noticed that your part qualities are very rough. You have filaments that are not fully bonded or melted to each other, warts, bumps, and cracks and loose filaments sticking out. Your sound quality might be improved if you spend a few hours doing nothing more than test prints while adjusting filament feed speed, head temperature, and fan speed and brand of filament until you get it dialed in to the point that it makes perfect prints. Once your have that, write down the settings. It will then take no longer to print perfect prints and save you time of sanding and bondo work.

I used to have that problem and the did experiments to set the correct temp and feed rate. A few degrees head temp and no cooling fan made all the difference. I was able to print these 12 hour prints that cane out nearly perfect. But it took 5 hours of futzing. The setting is repeatable. You just need to find it.

Here is an example of a horn wall adapter for my bookshelf synergy.

Click the image to open in full size.

Bits of fizz and detritus on your tweeter waveguide adversely affects sound quality. I know because a 1mm raised lip (not flush) on a tweeter faceplate is measurable as 1.5 to 2dB ripple.

Keep up the great work and high DIY energy!

Cheers,
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Old 23rd December 2019, 09:35 PM   #12
1hiep0 is offline 1hiep0  United States
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Default feedback?

Am hearing feedback at ~1.29s into Metlako youtube video. It's must be from the music not the speaker...strange.
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Old 24th December 2019, 07:20 PM   #13
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
I know your 3D printer is an indispensable part of your design process. However, I have noticed that your part qualities are very rough. You have filaments that are not fully bonded or melted to each other, warts, bumps, and cracks and loose filaments sticking out. Your sound quality might be improved if you spend a few hours doing nothing more than test prints while adjusting filament feed speed, head temperature, and fan speed and brand of filament until you get it dialed in to the point that it makes perfect prints.
A big chunk of this is that I just build stuff REALLY fast. No exaggeration, Nexus One took a grand total of eight hours from start to finish. Design, 3D printing, cutting the wood, measuring the speaker.

The print itself took about eleven hours, but I'm not counting that because it required no input from me.

I came THIS close to buying a new 3D printer about two weeks ago. Basically I stripped the threads of one of my printers, and due to that, I can't screw a nozzle into the hot end. (I think this was my fault, I wasn't paying attention and I turned the nozzle clockwise, which would be perfectly reasonable if the print head was facing UP not DOWN.)

This reminds me of a dumb story:

I like building bikes (I'm Patrick Bateman on the bike forums) and I had a bike where I couldn't get the bottom bracket out of the frame. I figured it must have got rusty, so I fashioned a lever out of a hunk of aluminum. I started with one foot of aluminum, and then I eventually ratcheted it up to an EIGHT foot lever. At this point, it was starting to feel like my forearm might break before the bottom bracket would.

Then I googled it and realized that bottom brackets use a reverse thread So everything I was doing was tightening it.

Back to the printer...

So I literally had a new 3D printer in my Amazon cart, and the more I read up on it, I realized it was going to need $300 in upgrades to get where I need it to be.

Click the image to open in full size.

The quality of my 3D prints took a big step backwards when I "fell back" to my older 3D printer. (Because the new one has a stripped hot end.) This particular filament strings like nothing I've ever seen. (It's weird how certain colors of filament behave different than others.)

Click the image to open in full size.

Brinkman's finishing trick make a world of difference, if you put in the time to sand it. It's a lot of work, but you can make 3D prints that have a mirror finish. It works REALLY nice, I don't think I'll use bondo again.

Click the image to open in full size.
And clear PETG seems to behave a lot better than grey PETG. My "theory" on this is that colored PETG may be recycled, but clear PETG has to be "virgin" PETG. This might explain why it works so much better than the colored stuff. (The split in this print is because I literally ran out of filament.) Amazon's PETG brand was really nice too, but they killed it.

Long story short:

I think I can get much better print quality by slowing down my prints, using clear PETG, and using a smaller nozzle. But all of my projects are rushed and half-assed, by design, because I wouldn't learn as much if I invested twice as long in each project. I'm a big fan of trying something out, measuring it, if it doesn't work it goes in the trash. And 90% of the projects wind up in the trash. Because I'm trying to find the right combination of waveguide, midbass, cabinet, etc.
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Old 24th December 2019, 07:52 PM   #14
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Click the image to open in full size.

Here's an 18 Sound XT1086 driven by a Tymphany NE19

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the polar response

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's Nexus One

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the Nexus One polar response

The Nexus waveguide isn't terrible, but the XT1086 is better

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's what the XT1086 would look like with a ring of 55-1870s around it

Click the image to open in full size.

And then we rotate the midbass array, Donald North style

Click the image to open in full size.
Click the image to open in full size.

Here's what the polar response looks like, using this spacing.

Much to my shock, I can actually move the midbasses even FURTHER out!

This is crazy, I'm surprised that such a wide spacing is working. If you look at speakers like the Snell eXpanding Array or the Horbach Keele array, the midranges and tweeter are right on top of the tweeter. Because when you make an MTM array, the midranges need to be REALLY tight.

Here's what I think is happening here. I know this is a long boring post, but this paragraph is the important part:

In an MTM array, we're going to get off-axis nulls at very specific frequencies. These off axis nulls put a hard limit on how close the mids need to be to the tweeter; it really needs to be tight.

The off-axis nulls are caused by geometry, and they're inescapable in an MTM. I describe how it works here : What Causes Off-Axis Nulls?

IE, you can tweak the delay on the mids, but all that does is MOVE the nulls, it doesn't eliminate them.

Now, remember, the nulls are geometric. They're caused by a pathlength difference between the top and the bottom woofer in an MTM.

So, I think what's happening here, is that the speakers to the left and to the right are behaving a bit like all the woofers are in a vertical line. IE, the top and the bottom woofer in this four woofer array, they're nearly eight inches apart. And if this was an MTM, that would be a problem. But the woofer on the left is only *six* inches from the top woofer, and because it's closer vertically, that's largely filling in the dip that's caused by the pathlength difference between the top and the bottom woofer.

This "filling in" effect seems to allow for a driver-to-driver spacing that's nearly double that you could achieve in an MTM. The fact that the DNA array has twice the power handling, higher efficiency and symmetry is just icing on the cake! (Why aren't more people making these DNA arrays?!)

Click the image to open in full size.

Just to make sure that I'm not taking crazy pills, I modeled the exact same spacing as a conventional MTM. And we can see that it's upper limit is about 1khz, as expected.

Click the image to open in full size.

Because we know that the DNA speaker is using an Aurasound 18, we know exactly how big the array is: 18.75" x 18.75".

So it looks like I can make my array much, MUCH bigger! I could probably even push it to 24" in diameter. (Because my horn allows for a lower xover point.)

(Donald North also holds the patent on Aurasound's "Whisper" driver, here)
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Old 24th December 2019, 08:59 PM   #15
xrk971 is offline xrk971  United States
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I discovered the same with variation of color and brand of filament. So I only use one brand and one color in order to have repeatable print settings for good prints.

You should try foam core. Maybe you have but it lets you prototype a lot of theirs fast too.
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Old 24th December 2019, 09:10 PM   #16
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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Originally Posted by xrk971 View Post
I discovered the same with variation of color and brand of filament. So I only use one brand and one color in order to have repeatable print settings for good prints.

You should try foam core. Maybe you have but it lets you prototype a lot of theirs fast too.
Actually, my "unitized image control waveguide" project was foam core.

Everything was working alright on that project, but the foam was a lot of work to finish. If I did it again, I'd pre-make constrained layer damping sheets and I'd construct the enclosure that way. Basically get the best of both worlds:

1) a hard surface that's easy to finish

2) a soft interior that's light, easy to cut, rigid, etc

Have you seen this: YouTube

It's basically a video showing how a warehouse is built with CLD sheets with a concrete face and a foam core. But instead of 4'x8' sheets, they're 48' x 64' :O
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Old 25th December 2019, 01:20 AM   #17
BradH is offline BradH
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Here's what I think is happening here. I know this is a long boring post, but this paragraph is the important part:
I haven't read a boring one yet.
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Old 25th December 2019, 04:42 AM   #18
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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I haven't read a boring one yet.
Thank you! I'm kinda obsessed lol

My family is watching Christmas movies, I'm here on the couch doing Vituixcad sims
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Old 25th December 2019, 04:50 AM   #19
Patrick Bateman is offline Patrick Bateman  United States
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NRPE hasn't been developed in well over a decade, so before I go and make sawdust, I thought I'd get a second opinion from another piece of software.

Vituixcad seemed like the best candidate.

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the predicted response from NRPE, a piece of abandonware from over sixteen years ago. Thanks to Ron Ennenga, John Kreskovsky, Kristian Ougaard and Paul Verdone.

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the predicted response from VituixCad

The Vituixcad sim looks way crazier. But it goes out to 90 degrees off axis, whereas the NRPE sim only goes out to 45 degrees off axis. And if I'm not mistaken, Vituixcad isn't accounting for the directivity of the speaker, while NRPE is. (Vituixcad CAD account for the directiivty of the speaker, but I'd have to go out in the December rain and measure it, and it's Christmas Eve and I'm not going to do that. NRPE allows you to just set a diameter and it can treat the speaker as an ideal radiator of that diameter.)

Click the image to open in full size.

Here's the arrangement of the drivers
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Old 25th December 2019, 08:18 AM   #20
zmyrna is offline zmyrna  United Kingdom
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What would it be like if 8 mid drivers were used in a circular arrangement? Round horn tweeter in the middle of course.
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