I know....I can have small .......or high sensitivity...
I have a few tube amps (PP and SET) ranging from 2W (Tubelab SE) to about 14W (PP triode EL34's) and I'm currently using Tang band W8-1772 full range drivers in bass reflex enclosure.
Before these I had some Fostex 207's in a half chang enclosure.
Both of the above are obviously floor-standers...
They sound quite good although I usually end up using a powered 12" sub for some bass augmentation.
..so if I'm running the sub-woofer anyway, I'd like to try some ribbons in a small enclosure; something without whizzer cones too....
I have a pair of Fountek Neo CD 3.0 ribbons that I would like to build with a small (4"-5") mid-bass or full range driver and need some suggestions...
So far I'm considering the Tang Band W5-2143 full range driver...perhaps MTM?
Tang Band W5-2143 5" Paper Cone Full Range Driver 8 Ohm
or the Audax 13LB25AL full range
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/pdf/13LB25AL.pdf
My thoughts are run the 5" driver full range and a simple 1st order on the ribbon crossed over quite high.....
The Audax is intriguing since it's 96db sensitivity .....gives me a little headroom to burn up doing BSC, etc
Thoughts? Issues with this approach?
I have a few tube amps (PP and SET) ranging from 2W (Tubelab SE) to about 14W (PP triode EL34's) and I'm currently using Tang band W8-1772 full range drivers in bass reflex enclosure.
Before these I had some Fostex 207's in a half chang enclosure.
Both of the above are obviously floor-standers...
They sound quite good although I usually end up using a powered 12" sub for some bass augmentation.
..so if I'm running the sub-woofer anyway, I'd like to try some ribbons in a small enclosure; something without whizzer cones too....
I have a pair of Fountek Neo CD 3.0 ribbons that I would like to build with a small (4"-5") mid-bass or full range driver and need some suggestions...
So far I'm considering the Tang Band W5-2143 full range driver...perhaps MTM?
Tang Band W5-2143 5" Paper Cone Full Range Driver 8 Ohm
or the Audax 13LB25AL full range
https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/pdf/13LB25AL.pdf
My thoughts are run the 5" driver full range and a simple 1st order on the ribbon crossed over quite high.....
The Audax is intriguing since it's 96db sensitivity .....gives me a little headroom to burn up doing BSC, etc
Thoughts? Issues with this approach?
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You mention whizzer cones. Some full range drivers are great, but dealing with cone breakup is one of the challenges and you have an opportunity to avoid this by crossing the top of the mid, even if it is a full range driver.
By crossing the ribbon so high, you then force the need for a smaller mid, maybe with less efficiency.
Then, yes the Audax is more efficient as it has a higher resonance. A dedicated midrange driver might be efficient also. Since you have subs, would you have a problem crossing high?
By crossing the ribbon so high, you then force the need for a smaller mid, maybe with less efficiency.
Then, yes the Audax is more efficient as it has a higher resonance. A dedicated midrange driver might be efficient also. Since you have subs, would you have a problem crossing high?
I'm a big fan of the B&C 8NDL51. There are a lot of great woofers in this class, but this is a good one. It's efficiency is similar to the Audax, it's price is similar, but it has more displacement, it plays lower and it has shorting rings IIRC.
Basically it would provide an option with more output, if you have additional amplifier power.
If your amp power is limited, you might focus on drivers with smaller voice coils. Basically a larger voice coil gives you more power handling, but it raises the mass, which generally lowers efficiency. YMMV.
Basically it would provide an option with more output, if you have additional amplifier power.
If your amp power is limited, you might focus on drivers with smaller voice coils. Basically a larger voice coil gives you more power handling, but it raises the mass, which generally lowers efficiency. YMMV.
2 in parallel: (..probably with an added inductor in series for one of the woofers to get the right "slope" for the net low-pass.)
M130-16 Woofer
The GR driver has a freq. response that's actually quite similar to the TB driver, but is 16 ohms: so depending on your amplifier's output impedance, you can get +3 db to +6 db with the parallel connection and still have an 8 ohm "average".
TB SPEAKERS W5-2143 (Full-range 5", 8 Ohm, 60 Wmax)
-the Audax has depressing performance:
AUDAX 13LB25AL (Full-range 5", 6 Ohm, 50 Wmax)
M130-16 Woofer
The GR driver has a freq. response that's actually quite similar to the TB driver, but is 16 ohms: so depending on your amplifier's output impedance, you can get +3 db to +6 db with the parallel connection and still have an 8 ohm "average".
TB SPEAKERS W5-2143 (Full-range 5", 8 Ohm, 60 Wmax)
-the Audax has depressing performance:
AUDAX 13LB25AL (Full-range 5", 6 Ohm, 50 Wmax)
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From 6" to 10"...why not a 8" ???
http://www.unisonresearch.com/en/products/loudspeakers/max-mini.html
http://www.unisonresearch.com/en/products/loudspeakers/max-mini.html
Because 8 inch will have the same problems going low and be high efficient as 6 inch. But if you know a good driver that can go lower and is high efficient (+93db)...
Thanks everyone!
Patrick....8" is way larger than I'm looking for.....I'd like to stay less than 6"..and I only really need to get down to say 100 Hz with subwoofer augmentation.
The Faital 6FE200 is interesting but it appears that it's good to about 4000 Hz....was hoping to crossover much higher with a simple 1st order on the Fountek ribbon. I'm not married to first order, it just keeps things simple.
The M130-16's are interesting too.... .48 cu ft for a pair and gets down to 90 Hz... but a pair only gets me to 90 db...my lowest powered amp is 2W and my favorite is 8W..looks like they are good to about 5000 Hz...
..and thanks ScottG for the italian page for the Tang Band....it shows off axis performance...sometimes hard to find for TB speakers.
Patrick....8" is way larger than I'm looking for.....I'd like to stay less than 6"..and I only really need to get down to say 100 Hz with subwoofer augmentation.
The Faital 6FE200 is interesting but it appears that it's good to about 4000 Hz....was hoping to crossover much higher with a simple 1st order on the Fountek ribbon. I'm not married to first order, it just keeps things simple.
The M130-16's are interesting too.... .48 cu ft for a pair and gets down to 90 Hz... but a pair only gets me to 90 db...my lowest powered amp is 2W and my favorite is 8W..looks like they are good to about 5000 Hz...
..and thanks ScottG for the italian page for the Tang Band....it shows off axis performance...sometimes hard to find for TB speakers.
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Your welcome!
..with a small stand-mount you can figure 5 db of baffle step loss - and its going to extend higher in freq..
GR-Research:
acoustic gain is +3 db (doubling the woofers), and you'd get another +3 db from the drop in voltage IF you have lower output impedance amplifiers - which I'm guessing you don't. After baffle-step compensation I'd guess you'd be about 91 db average ..maybe a bit higher (1 db?) with some voltage "gain". (Note: this is with an average for each midbass around 1 kHz: 88db.)
That's not that far off from the Neo CD 3.
You could also "squeeze" a bit more out of it with a smaller aperiodic enclosure (achieving a bit more gain below 200 Hz for part of your baffle-step loss compensation). (..at the penalty of lower freq. extension.)
Of course this (or most other designs that are small) are NOT going to really be appropriate for a 2 watt amplifier (..assuming program material has any dynamics.)
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You can see what Troel's ended-up with here:
Fostex FE126E +
(..and this will have very high distortion below 200 Hz.)
Fostex FE126E +
(..and this will have very high distortion below 200 Hz.)
Your welcome!
..with a small stand-mount you can figure 5 db of baffle step loss - and its
That's not that far off from the Neo CD 3.
You could also "squeeze" a bit more out of it with a smaller aperiodic enclosure (achieving a bit more gain below 200 Hz for part of your baffle-step loss compensation). (..at the penalty of lower freq. extension.)
Of course this (or most other designs that are small) are NOT going to really be appropriate for a 2 watt amplifier (..assuming program material has any dynamics.)
Thanks again.....I haven't looked at the Fostex line ..but I will today. Spent lots of time browsing Parts Express full range and Pro pages; seems like pro midranges have really high sensitivity but fall off long before 100hz and midwoofers can get down to 100hz but only reasonably get to 4-5Khz. That may be an issue unless I want to do a higher order high pass on the Fountek.
Reading the Troels Fostex/Fountek project .....interesting....
Great question.......my Tang Band W8-1772's are 95 db..and they are sufficient...91 may not be.
The aperiodic "variovent" idea is interesting....
What are the downsides of taking a driver where the response starts falling off relatively high (say around 200hz) and putting it in a slightly undersized enclosure to bump the system "Q" up a little? That should get F3 a little lower freq and get a bit higher sensitivity at lower frequencies.
I'm sure there are downsides to this.....
I imagine one obvious downside is that the roll off is steeper than with an optimally tuned box
What are the downsides of taking a driver where the response starts falling off relatively high (say around 200hz) and putting it in a slightly undersized enclosure to bump the system "Q" up a little? That should get F3 a little lower freq and get a bit higher sensitivity at lower frequencies.
I'm sure there are downsides to this.....
I imagine one obvious downside is that the roll off is steeper than with an optimally tuned box
Usually you look for a driver with a higher Qts (largely Qe), and an Fs of at least 90 Hz (lower is preferable) - and ideally with a bit more xmax. The resonance will of course go higher in Hz in-box, but at the same time the "peak" at that resonance "Fb" will lower/"flattened" depending on how successful the vent is. Lower volume/smaller box though, but with (much) less pressure at lower freq.s..
I wouldn't do it with driver that doesn't have the above qualities, because it won't give much gain that you are specifically looking for.
ex.
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 8FE200
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yup..that occurred to me after I wrote the stuff above....f3 goes up and rolloff slope gets steeper with smaller enclosures...
Ok.
One more suggestion
MONACOR: SP-4/60PRO
But, well, again, only 90dB.
Incidentally, I use Fountek CD3.5H with Monacor MSH115 (89dB), which is a midrange with low Fs, and it easily reproduces bass down to 100Hz or so.
When I first listened to the combination, I was blown away. The little mid made sort of good bass sounds to very modest levels and paper cone mid and ribbon seemed to integrate better than I thought they could, or would. But why definitely need to be high passed and treated as a midrange.
I've also been testing using a lower efficiency mid woofer, Fountek FW100B, and that works nicely with the ribbon too, just with lower volume.
I may build these as a MTM with a 2" tweeter, rather than ribbon, for a similar purpose, TV/DVD 2.1 system
Monacor MS 130 looks good for SPL until you see the xmax.
MONACOR: MS-130
Maybe a faital 5 or 6??
FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 6PR110
Like this one?
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