I have been considering both of these drivers for the HF of a music speaker system that will cross likely to a 12 or 15" woofer that is yet to be determined. Obviously there are huge differences in these drivers, but am wondering how much HF I give up by going with a crossover a little lower and using the HF146 vs the HF10AK? Graphs tell me only so much, and wonder what others have experienced or implemented to close the gap - if at all possible!
At present I own the B52 clones of the QSC 1" guide and a pair of 18 Sound XT1464. My system is triamped with a DBX Driverack 260 handling DSP duties.
My intention was to do ULF likely with some 18" JBL 2245's, so I am not sure if there is anything to gain going 1.4/15" vs 1/12". I certainly wouldn't like to sacrifice HF, since LF is less of a priority due to the JBL. Maybe I just answered my own questions, but without asking, I am unsure if anyone has had experience/success comparing these drivers/guides.
Search has shown the XT1464/HF146 combo to be nice, and lots like the HF10AK for how smooth it is... would it mate well with a guide like the QSC everyone likes so much? I'm certainly open to suggestion as well.
At present I own the B52 clones of the QSC 1" guide and a pair of 18 Sound XT1464. My system is triamped with a DBX Driverack 260 handling DSP duties.
My intention was to do ULF likely with some 18" JBL 2245's, so I am not sure if there is anything to gain going 1.4/15" vs 1/12". I certainly wouldn't like to sacrifice HF, since LF is less of a priority due to the JBL. Maybe I just answered my own questions, but without asking, I am unsure if anyone has had experience/success comparing these drivers/guides.
Search has shown the XT1464/HF146 combo to be nice, and lots like the HF10AK for how smooth it is... would it mate well with a guide like the QSC everyone likes so much? I'm certainly open to suggestion as well.
The HF10AK is an incredible driver and sounds better than most. I am not sure how happy it will be crossed over to low.
Why don't you look at the HF108, this will cross over lower and will still sound silky smooth and detailed. It is also a favourite of mine.
I use the 10AK in a three way crossed at 4k and it is better than any dome out there!
Why don't you look at the HF108, this will cross over lower and will still sound silky smooth and detailed. It is also a favourite of mine.
I use the 10AK in a three way crossed at 4k and it is better than any dome out there!
(normally there are two impedance peaks, but the second one seems to be suppressed on some drivers like the Faital HF108)
Faital HF108: short path lengths create small front and rear resonant volumes + new shorter annular phase plug design with reduced resonances.
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I think the Faital HF108 was designed to improve performance in short horns and wide dispersion waveguides. The flat SPL curve and flat Impedance curve combine to produce great performance from passive "basic circuit" crossovers. Good physical time alignment is possible with careful selection of a midwoofer and waveguide. You can build a great 3-way speaker by bi-amping the physically time aligned TM, with a DSP time alignment on just the woofer.
The Faital HF108 engineers designed:
1) A powerful BL = 2.1T flux motor which uses a thin NeFeB magnet. This reduces the motor cavity volume and resonances, and also shortens the path to the rear chamber which has absorption material.
2) A very shallow new annular phase plug, which reduces front cavity resonances, which also reduces impedance bumps.
P.S.
Net air volume filled by dome = 0.195dm^3 - which I consider small
HF108 Exit angle is 31-degrees conical
===
===for comparison
===
The Faital HF10AK has a 0.31dm^3 net air volume filled by dome, and an exit angle of 21-degrees conical
============
I own: The $13 PartsExpress B-52 PHRN-1014 1" Horn is 10" x 14" waveguide with 5" depth which can support a 1.2kHz crossover between the midrange and tweeter horn. Several curvelinear cone 12" midwoofers will polar match 90-degrees @1.2kHz. The $130 Eminence DeltaPro 12A is a low cost high quality choice, with a 6.22" total depth which puts the voice coil near the 5.2" horn depth. I own: $230 Faital 12PR300 has a ~5.0-5.2" voice coil depth. The newer faital 12PR320 would be my choice today.
===
Faital HF108: short path lengths create small front and rear resonant volumes + new shorter annular phase plug design with reduced resonances.
---------------
I think the Faital HF108 was designed to improve performance in short horns and wide dispersion waveguides. The flat SPL curve and flat Impedance curve combine to produce great performance from passive "basic circuit" crossovers. Good physical time alignment is possible with careful selection of a midwoofer and waveguide. You can build a great 3-way speaker by bi-amping the physically time aligned TM, with a DSP time alignment on just the woofer.
The Faital HF108 engineers designed:
1) A powerful BL = 2.1T flux motor which uses a thin NeFeB magnet. This reduces the motor cavity volume and resonances, and also shortens the path to the rear chamber which has absorption material.
2) A very shallow new annular phase plug, which reduces front cavity resonances, which also reduces impedance bumps.
P.S.
Net air volume filled by dome = 0.195dm^3 - which I consider small
HF108 Exit angle is 31-degrees conical
===
===for comparison
===
The Faital HF10AK has a 0.31dm^3 net air volume filled by dome, and an exit angle of 21-degrees conical
============
I own: The $13 PartsExpress B-52 PHRN-1014 1" Horn is 10" x 14" waveguide with 5" depth which can support a 1.2kHz crossover between the midrange and tweeter horn. Several curvelinear cone 12" midwoofers will polar match 90-degrees @1.2kHz. The $130 Eminence DeltaPro 12A is a low cost high quality choice, with a 6.22" total depth which puts the voice coil near the 5.2" horn depth. I own: $230 Faital 12PR300 has a ~5.0-5.2" voice coil depth. The newer faital 12PR320 would be my choice today.
===
Attachments
You can find measurements of the 18Sound NSD1095N on the XT1086 horn to help your decision.
ATTACHED: a table of physical properties for most diaphragms. includes NSD1095 vs, NSD1095N
(makes you wonder why magnesium does not get more love)
To reduce breakup, several newer Titanium diaphragms use
1) stamped-in ribs Peerless DFM 254400-8
2) plastic coating Peerless DFM 254400-8
3) Nitride coating ( NSD1095N) -- see table of materials
AND.... now that the patent has expired... plastic annular rings like the BMS 4552nd are everywhere.
All I want for Christmas is the new coaxial annular rings B&C DCX464 compression driver!
Dear Santa at Parts-Express....
ATTACHED: a table of physical properties for most diaphragms. includes NSD1095 vs, NSD1095N
(makes you wonder why magnesium does not get more love)
To reduce breakup, several newer Titanium diaphragms use
1) stamped-in ribs Peerless DFM 254400-8
2) plastic coating Peerless DFM 254400-8
3) Nitride coating ( NSD1095N) -- see table of materials
AND.... now that the patent has expired... plastic annular rings like the BMS 4552nd are everywhere.
All I want for Christmas is the new coaxial annular rings B&C DCX464 compression driver!
Dear Santa at Parts-Express....
Attachments
You can find measurements of the 18Sound NSD1095N on the XT1086 horn to help your decision.
ATTACHED: a table of physical properties for most diaphragms. includes NSD1095 vs, NSD1095N
(makes you wonder why magnesium does not get more love)
To reduce breakup, several newer Titanium diaphragms use
1) stamped-in ribs Peerless DFM 254400-8
2) plastic coating Peerless DFM 254400-8
3) Nitride coating ( NSD1095N) -- see table of materials
AND.... now that the patent has expired... plastic annular rings like the BMS 4552nd are everywhere.
All I want for Christmas is the new coaxial annular rings B&C DCX464 compression driver!
Dear Santa at Parts-Express....
ATTACHED: a table of physical properties for most diaphragms. includes NSD1095 vs, NSD1095N
(makes you wonder why magnesium does not get more love)
To reduce breakup, several newer Titanium diaphragms use
1) stamped-in ribs Peerless DFM 254400-8
2) plastic coating Peerless DFM 254400-8
3) Nitride coating ( NSD1095N) -- see table of materials
AND.... now that the patent has expired... plastic annular rings like the BMS 4552nd are everywhere.
All I want for Christmas is the new coaxial annular rings B&C DCX464 compression driver!
Dear Santa at Parts-Express....
LineSource very great schematic over the many different types of membrane materiel,,i can see you know a lot about cd driver and horn,,,respect
i use now nsd1095 in xt1086 horn
i will like to hear if the sound from a polymor membran is more silky sounding ,,than the sound from the nsd1095
the sound from the nsd1095 is a bit hard to the ears - i use it from 1,3 to 5 khz
so if the Faital HF108 is more silky and soft sounding (still with good dynamic) then i will try it
so does the HF108 sound easy for the ears even with high decibel ?
Best Bjarne
i use now nsd1095 in xt1086 horn
i will like to hear if the sound from a polymor membran is more silky sounding ,,than the sound from the nsd1095
the sound from the nsd1095 is a bit hard to the ears - i use it from 1,3 to 5 khz
so if the Faital HF108 is more silky and soft sounding (still with good dynamic) then i will try it
so does the HF108 sound easy for the ears even with high decibel ?
Best Bjarne
I have looked at the HF108 some. It appears to be similar in price to the other drivers, and doesn't look too bad on paper. I know a few have championed it in several threads/posts and like that it's got some following.
On account of my large guides, it would seem 12-15" woofers would be the logical choice for directivity purposes. Going up to a 10 is always a possibility but not one I've entertained much. Though, it would allow better integration with the HF10AK at a higher XO point, whilst likely introducing some issues regarding directivity at that frequency, ya?
Ideally budget would allow purchase of both sets of drivers and trying them, measuring them, and sharing my findings... But I don't make that much, and they ain't that cheap! Am tempted to try at least one set of the 3 drivers mentioned in this thread... So far, nothing new from manufacturer in the price range seems to be comparable.
Line Source - your mention of mid is interesting. What would your opinion of a half price pair of 12PR300 with slightly different spec (like QMS 16+) be? Worth investigating?
On account of my large guides, it would seem 12-15" woofers would be the logical choice for directivity purposes. Going up to a 10 is always a possibility but not one I've entertained much. Though, it would allow better integration with the HF10AK at a higher XO point, whilst likely introducing some issues regarding directivity at that frequency, ya?
Ideally budget would allow purchase of both sets of drivers and trying them, measuring them, and sharing my findings... But I don't make that much, and they ain't that cheap! Am tempted to try at least one set of the 3 drivers mentioned in this thread... So far, nothing new from manufacturer in the price range seems to be comparable.
Line Source - your mention of mid is interesting. What would your opinion of a half price pair of 12PR300 with slightly different spec (like QMS 16+) be? Worth investigating?
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That'll be an interesting comparison.
You'll need to tell Troels about this if the FaitalPro driver is an improvement.
Additionally, it's possible that metal ( 1086 ) horn is adding a bit of "metal signature" to the sound ( via "ringing", even though that particular waveguide has a fairly heavy casting ).
How loud is your "LOUD" ( BTW ) ?
I don't listen at loud levels ( iow, always less than 90db / more like 80-85db ).
how loud --you can feel the drums in the chest give some good massage from the deep bas i have no idea what the DB is ,,newer play so loud that it distort ,and not play so loud when the music is more acoustic ,,if the Faital have the right sound for me...oh oh oh i will be happy
i can say the worst sound from the horn is a electric guitar (but acoustic guitar sound fine at most
i can say the worst sound from the horn is a electric guitar (but acoustic guitar sound fine at most
time to tell a little about the Faital HF108
i use it now instead of the NSD 1095 driver
The Faital give med just what i was hope for,,,a more civilized sound than the nsd1095
the Faital sound really nice ,,very fine dynamic silky sound,,,,no metallic sound like the
nsd1095
i use the Faital all way up without coil in filter,,,,i will say that the faital give a little more top end than the nsd1095 (maybe about 2db more )
i have change the filter to be used with Faital,,,(cap and notch filter are change a little)
i use now my Beyma tpl200 from 8 to 20khz (totally overkill,,but measure fine ,lift the top just what i make it to )
Best Bjarne
i use it now instead of the NSD 1095 driver
The Faital give med just what i was hope for,,,a more civilized sound than the nsd1095
the Faital sound really nice ,,very fine dynamic silky sound,,,,no metallic sound like the
nsd1095
i use the Faital all way up without coil in filter,,,,i will say that the faital give a little more top end than the nsd1095 (maybe about 2db more )
i have change the filter to be used with Faital,,,(cap and notch filter are change a little)
i use now my Beyma tpl200 from 8 to 20khz (totally overkill,,but measure fine ,lift the top just what i make it to )
Best Bjarne
Hi, I'd interested this driver as well, did you any measurement to share? It's quite an expensive driver. Thank and Happy Holiday!
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Comment by a PA Professional:
"The HF108 sounded smoother than the 4540nd when I tested it, less harsh and aggressive, and much flatter response on my horn."
The difference between the HF108 and HF108R, according to a large reseller:
"The HF108R version has a thicker membrane and a more rigid clamping system. These details allow a more controlled movement, reducing the distortions and making less nervous and metallic the mid/high freq.
As far as final application, the HF108 is more suitable for touring line array, big environments and open-air listening; while the HF108R version is more indicated for indoor/hi-fi, nearfield applications."
"The HF108 sounded smoother than the 4540nd when I tested it, less harsh and aggressive, and much flatter response on my horn."
The difference between the HF108 and HF108R, according to a large reseller:
"The HF108R version has a thicker membrane and a more rigid clamping system. These details allow a more controlled movement, reducing the distortions and making less nervous and metallic the mid/high freq.
As far as final application, the HF108 is more suitable for touring line array, big environments and open-air listening; while the HF108R version is more indicated for indoor/hi-fi, nearfield applications."
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