I am looking to build a bigger sized two way bookshelf at the $1.5K budget range.
These two pop up among the rest I've searched:
1. Seas Bifrost
BIFROST
2. Scanspeak Lumine
Lumine One 2-Way Speaker Kit
both are very good looking speakers, I feels the Lumine has a better high frequency clarity, but the Bifrost has a more rounded midrange(maybe due to its 7'' woofer? ). Want to hear from you guy's opinions, so I can choose one to build. Worst case if it's a tie, I will build both (but my wife will be so pissed off, as there are too many pairs in the house).
I found one Youtube video comparing these two head to head:
YouTube
These two pop up among the rest I've searched:
1. Seas Bifrost
BIFROST
2. Scanspeak Lumine
Lumine One 2-Way Speaker Kit
both are very good looking speakers, I feels the Lumine has a better high frequency clarity, but the Bifrost has a more rounded midrange(maybe due to its 7'' woofer? ). Want to hear from you guy's opinions, so I can choose one to build. Worst case if it's a tie, I will build both (but my wife will be so pissed off, as there are too many pairs in the house).
I found one Youtube video comparing these two head to head:
YouTube
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You are comparing two very different speakers, as one ha more than double the volume as the other, something that is justified by the different size of the midwoofers. Only one fit in my definition of bigger sized bookshelf speaker.
Besides that, IMHO both kits use expensive drivers coupled with too easy crossovers. I can't really comment on the Lumine kit, as the FR graph published is ridiculous, but for sure I don't like the Bifrost FR and crossover point. For that price range, again IMHO, there are better solutions.
Note that the Bifrost has almost full baffle step compensation, so it should be placed well away from walls.
Ralf
Besides that, IMHO both kits use expensive drivers coupled with too easy crossovers. I can't really comment on the Lumine kit, as the FR graph published is ridiculous, but for sure I don't like the Bifrost FR and crossover point. For that price range, again IMHO, there are better solutions.
Note that the Bifrost has almost full baffle step compensation, so it should be placed well away from walls.
Ralf
I like the Bifrost for the overall, but really wondering if I can alter the tweeter in it so that I can get the high frequency sounds of the Lumine.. My intention is to have a bigger bookshelf speaker for vocal, jazz and violin/piano even a little bit cello musics, so the Bifrost size is really a good fit.
Don't know much about the FR of the crossover designs....
Don't know much about the FR of the crossover designs....
Have you looked at the Nada kit at madisound. Sounds like a good compromise between the two 7” sealed with Be tweeter.
NADA 2-Way Klang + Ton Kit Pair using Illuminator Drivers
NADA 2-Way Klang + Ton Kit Pair using Illuminator Drivers
Have you also studied.....
Troels Gravensen's Illuminator Monitor uses the 7" ScanSpeak 18WU/8741T00 driver paired with either 7100 or 6600 tweeters. Troels provides documented crossovers for both an RC delay circuit block, and also LR2 second order circuits. Cabinet construction drawings included.
You meant this speaker? I found it on Youtube and it really triggered me to build exactly the same pair for myself..
YouTube
Hi I am new here, a mod over at audiogon , suggested i take my thoughts over here on DIYaudio, My topic was
SEAS Thor
vs SB Acoustics 2.5 way.
I madea long thread, explaining my ideas on that topic, so short story, I jhave the SEAS Thor for now 18 yrs and have been very happy, but now i am looking fora new MTm/2.5 way, and by sheer chance discovered SB Acoustics.
I suggest you takea look at the SEAS Thor kit and the SB Acoustics 2.5 Satori..My hunch is the SB will slightly out perform the Thor.
I plan to have madisound install all caps as M's Silver/Gold Oil. Not the more costly supremes.
I will also update my thors xover with M Silver Gold + I boughta like new M Gold Silver OIl Supreme 10uF on ebay for $200/pair, So I suggest you broaden your quest to include these 2 super high fidelity speakers in your search.
I saw the Bifrost, its not in the same class as the Excel/Thor series.
SB ACOUSTICS SBA-761 2.5-WAY SATORI KIT
SEAS Thor
vs SB Acoustics 2.5 way.
I madea long thread, explaining my ideas on that topic, so short story, I jhave the SEAS Thor for now 18 yrs and have been very happy, but now i am looking fora new MTm/2.5 way, and by sheer chance discovered SB Acoustics.
I suggest you takea look at the SEAS Thor kit and the SB Acoustics 2.5 Satori..My hunch is the SB will slightly out perform the Thor.
I plan to have madisound install all caps as M's Silver/Gold Oil. Not the more costly supremes.
I will also update my thors xover with M Silver Gold + I boughta like new M Gold Silver OIl Supreme 10uF on ebay for $200/pair, So I suggest you broaden your quest to include these 2 super high fidelity speakers in your search.
I saw the Bifrost, its not in the same class as the Excel/Thor series.
SB ACOUSTICS SBA-761 2.5-WAY SATORI KIT
You'll be happy with the 761, Satori is a massive improvement over the Seas excel for classical music.
Hi Chris,
Thanks for the confirm.
Most folks can not decipher sounds froma YT vid, I havea knack for interpreting sounds.
The Satori was quite a ~~revelation~~, as i had imagined the SEAS Excel top dog all these years. What happened was this, I wanted a new 845 or 805 amp experience as a 2nd system,. So knowing the Thors are rated 87 db and would not work with the SET amp, so i decided to aslo adda 2nd system speaker, with at least 90db+.
So I went to madisounds' pages and cked ever SEAS...Nothing I really liked. While there, I noted a lab called ~~SB Acoustics~~ as they also offered my fav, neo magnets, I love neo magnets and will only buy neo, not FE magnets.
Whata eye opener,,but needed further evidence on the sound quality = at least as good as the EXCEL Mag line/Millenium tweet.
There is ionly 1 good vid voicing the SB satori drivers. with the Ring /neo tweet. WOW, If they sound as good as in the vid, my hunch the Satori/Ring Tweet will challenge the Seas Thors.
I still have plans to upgrade the xovers in the thors,,as the premium grade xovers purchased in 2002ish, going on 15+ yrs/ Time for new tech caps, = Mundork Silver Giold Oil. Not the supremes, as they are out my budget. I have a pair of M Gold Silver Supreme 10Uf I bought off ebay, and will ship the pair to madisound to employ in the upper fq xover, and add a 8uf along with the 10uf = 18 uf cap.
The lower cap will be a Tin Mondorf, as the lower hz's will not benifit from add silver in the cap.
I will also have madisound add the M Silver Gold Oil to the satori 2.4 kit.
This way both speakers will be on level playing field.
The Thor new xover will be so large and not fit inside cabinet,,I will havea box outside the cab housing the xover.
The M gold/silver oil supreme are HUGE caps. The old Hovland caps look tiny in comparison.
I have alot of work to do, or at least my tech guy in baton Rouge, and so all these upgardes will take some months to complete.
Will post a vid on YT for the Shoot-out.
My hunh is this, the Thors were a HUGE upgrade over my Philips 2 way 1976 speakers. I had ideas the Philips was ture Hi Fedility as labeled on the cabinet, Next to my Thors, all the weaknesses in the Philips could clearly be heard,,My hunch is , the Thors will meet their cahllenge.
Now remember the Excel line is from 2000 or before, So stands to reason the SB line is the *new kid on the block~ in technology,
The seas Thors stood the test of time and served me very well.
To this day, i do not believe there is a finer wteet than the Millenium, as it acts a pure midrange/tweet, and voices incredible sioundstage = images a real live jazz group right in your living room.
The system was Thor/Jadis Orch refer/Cayin cd 17 tube player with 4 6922's. and new 628 opamps,, The sound was incredible,,,Sold off the JOR,,,,, I have new high tech Discrete opamps from Sparkolabs which will be installed in the Cayin cd17, + other mods to all units. Silver wires/copper connects/RCA jacks, etc.
By years end 2020, all mods/upgrades should be installed.
I even plan to upgarde all caps in the Defy 7 to M Silver/gold Oil.
And all new M caps in the Cayin preamp i plan to purcahse.
To allow Class A drivers to voice class A sound, one also needs to make Class A mods/upgrades to the power/digital/wireing sources.
Thanks for the confirm.
Most folks can not decipher sounds froma YT vid, I havea knack for interpreting sounds.
The Satori was quite a ~~revelation~~, as i had imagined the SEAS Excel top dog all these years. What happened was this, I wanted a new 845 or 805 amp experience as a 2nd system,. So knowing the Thors are rated 87 db and would not work with the SET amp, so i decided to aslo adda 2nd system speaker, with at least 90db+.
So I went to madisounds' pages and cked ever SEAS...Nothing I really liked. While there, I noted a lab called ~~SB Acoustics~~ as they also offered my fav, neo magnets, I love neo magnets and will only buy neo, not FE magnets.
Whata eye opener,,but needed further evidence on the sound quality = at least as good as the EXCEL Mag line/Millenium tweet.
There is ionly 1 good vid voicing the SB satori drivers. with the Ring /neo tweet. WOW, If they sound as good as in the vid, my hunch the Satori/Ring Tweet will challenge the Seas Thors.
I still have plans to upgrade the xovers in the thors,,as the premium grade xovers purchased in 2002ish, going on 15+ yrs/ Time for new tech caps, = Mundork Silver Giold Oil. Not the supremes, as they are out my budget. I have a pair of M Gold Silver Supreme 10Uf I bought off ebay, and will ship the pair to madisound to employ in the upper fq xover, and add a 8uf along with the 10uf = 18 uf cap.
The lower cap will be a Tin Mondorf, as the lower hz's will not benifit from add silver in the cap.
I will also have madisound add the M Silver Gold Oil to the satori 2.4 kit.
This way both speakers will be on level playing field.
The Thor new xover will be so large and not fit inside cabinet,,I will havea box outside the cab housing the xover.
The M gold/silver oil supreme are HUGE caps. The old Hovland caps look tiny in comparison.
I have alot of work to do, or at least my tech guy in baton Rouge, and so all these upgardes will take some months to complete.
Will post a vid on YT for the Shoot-out.
My hunh is this, the Thors were a HUGE upgrade over my Philips 2 way 1976 speakers. I had ideas the Philips was ture Hi Fedility as labeled on the cabinet, Next to my Thors, all the weaknesses in the Philips could clearly be heard,,My hunch is , the Thors will meet their cahllenge.
Now remember the Excel line is from 2000 or before, So stands to reason the SB line is the *new kid on the block~ in technology,
The seas Thors stood the test of time and served me very well.
To this day, i do not believe there is a finer wteet than the Millenium, as it acts a pure midrange/tweet, and voices incredible sioundstage = images a real live jazz group right in your living room.
The system was Thor/Jadis Orch refer/Cayin cd 17 tube player with 4 6922's. and new 628 opamps,, The sound was incredible,,,Sold off the JOR,,,,, I have new high tech Discrete opamps from Sparkolabs which will be installed in the Cayin cd17, + other mods to all units. Silver wires/copper connects/RCA jacks, etc.
By years end 2020, all mods/upgrades should be installed.
I even plan to upgarde all caps in the Defy 7 to M Silver/gold Oil.
And all new M caps in the Cayin preamp i plan to purcahse.
To allow Class A drivers to voice class A sound, one also needs to make Class A mods/upgrades to the power/digital/wireing sources.
Have you seen the PBN Audio's SB Satori kit? 3 way with beryllium tweeter, 5" satori mid and two 9.5" satori woofer per side.
Satori SBA 951 Speaker Kit by Peter Noerbaek - Pair
Alternatively, this is a cheap try of the Satori sound via Zaph's 12.3 kit, 92db sensitivity!
Zaph|Audio SB12.3 ~ SB Acoustics 12", Dual Midrange, 3-Way
The SB Satori far exceeds Seas Excel. I had the Troels Jenzen Seas CA with Excel tweet and heard magnesium excel speakers extensively.
Seas had a midwoofer with egyptian papyrus cone and it sounded a touch strident. The Satori had no such issues at all.
Audiophile passive crossover components are really not worth upgrading when the drivers used aren't state of the art anymore. Its costly yet the improvements arent that great. I speak of this after over a decade playing with solen, mundorf supreme SGO, Jantzen, Clarity caps and various others.
Whilst my main systems are class D, i just got a KT88 Push pull with Tango X5-P OPTs. I should try these with the SB Satori 2.5way Rinjani floorstanders, those are quite agile, especially for classical.
These are all 4 ohm nominal designs.I would have thought that if you are using a SET amplifier you would be much better with something with a genuine 8 ohm impedance and higher sensitivity too.TG makes a few kits like that which really are SET amplifier friendly.
As mentioned the Seas A26 would also be sensible choice.
I built a Meniscus Kairos which uses the Satori drivers and which is pretty good but it is not SET amplifier friendly.Not even push pull valve amp friendly really.
As mentioned the Seas A26 would also be sensible choice.
I built a Meniscus Kairos which uses the Satori drivers and which is pretty good but it is not SET amplifier friendly.Not even push pull valve amp friendly really.
If you are going for a small-ish stand mount with possibly a subwoofer in your future, I'd go with the Scanspeak Lumine. On the other hand, if you want an all-in-one 2 way with significant bass, say, more than enough for an apartment living room, I suggest you get something wiht a 6" Scanspeak mid-woofer. AMAZING bass output, and phenomenal warm midrange, which brings us to the Klang Tong NADA. The Nada design has some important criticisms in the crossover, worth reading up on it. The drivers are excellent, but there are some interesting re-thought crossovers you might want to use instead.
Also, sadly no one has ever heard these but me.... there's my own, and they are fabulous....
A Speaker Maker's Journey: SNR-1 : A Two Way High End DIY Monitor
Click on it and it will take you to the files and discussion. I really won't be offended if you go that route or not. I saved some money on the mid-range and spent a lot more on the tweeter.
Also, sadly no one has ever heard these but me.... there's my own, and they are fabulous....
A Speaker Maker's Journey: SNR-1 : A Two Way High End DIY Monitor
Click on it and it will take you to the files and discussion. I really won't be offended if you go that route or not. I saved some money on the mid-range and spent a lot more on the tweeter.
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The big 3 way,,,well just too much.
The Thors will receive new xovers with Mundorf silver gold in the C2/C3, as per suggestion bya Madisound tech guru.
I already have the 10uf Gold Silver Supreme Oil, picked up for $200/pr used on ebay,,now will add the missing 8 ohm for C2 or C3, can 't recall, the other caps will be the lesser expensive Silver Gold Oil, white casing M's.
The R2 withh be a M R Resist.
New coils etc.
The new xover will be hosued ina separate box, and will have Richard Grey to help with soldering the Thors to the new xovers.
late next year i will start with the 2.5 satori design.
Will be interesting the shootout Seas Thors/new M xover overs vs the Satori 2.5/Mundorf caps/Silver Gold Oil.
Will post a YT vid. Longer tahn the vid below, as i boughta heavy duty power pack for the cheap no name brand cmaera ($100) off amazon. It cuts out in less than 3 minutes.
After Richard Grey mods my cayin cd17/mark 1, with new M Silver/Gold oil, about 20 of them, I will posta YT vid on that mod.
Richard is agaisnt the mod, say he's *been there done that * with these caps, and his clients did not like them.
Monday I will head over to his shop,,,hopefully he will be in and willing to mod.
My system is
cayin cd17 mark 1, class A/B cd player
SEAS Thors Class A drivers/but out dated Class B xovers
jadis Defy/Running Siemens and Philips E80CC's in the 2 AU slots, and have a mix of AX's, have some Siemens arriving next week and am about to lock in a order tonight for about 6 RCA 12B7h, , which i just discovered last night can be employed ina AX section. Took like 2 wseeks to find that tube.As the E80CC blew away all AU's, i wanted the same big boys in the AX's.
By sheer luck, i found the 12B7H tube.
No I did not read through the thread,,,the tech specs are way over my head.
I'm guessing the tall bottle 12BZ7's will give me *more bang for the buck* vs the Siemens 12AX's.
12BZ7
at the very end of the vid, you can see the tall boy's, E80CC's in action.
I am running chinese KT88's, which i bought cheap off ebay, like 24 for $180, label says ARC , which Richard chuckled are no doubt ARC rejects. ,,which may explain why i havea slight hum at start up.
anyway they beat out my new EH KT90's. , , (the 12 EH's will be up for sale, if anyone is interested/on the cheap)
YouTube
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