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Old 21st November 2019, 04:40 PM   #11
weltersys is offline weltersys  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
But really, the distortion from over-run and under-feedback tubes is a total accident of tube design. Nothing musical about it in the sense that it bears no relation to the music, rhythm/beat excepted.

BTW, there are organs that dobsound awful although I suspect all the basic instruments never do, bag-pipes excepted.
Ben,

You are certainly entitled to your opinion of bagpipes and certain instruments as sounding "awful".

The "total accident of tube design" and overdriven speakers has played an important part in music as long as they have been around, and their distortion is harmonically very related to music, just as are the variety of tonal drawbar stops available from the now-classic tone wheel organs originating from a similar age in time.

As evidenced by the millions of musicians and billions of people that like that type of distortion in the music they listen to and support, it won't be going away. Those types of musical sounds have been around for well over a century, starting with the Telharmonium, created in 1897.

In any electro-magnetic musical instrument, the choice of speakers used is an important part of the design. A Hammond B-3 without a Leslie speaker, or played "flat" through a "high fidelity" speaker can sound more like a bad set of bagpipes than the church, jazz and rock sounds we usually associate it with.

As I recall, you use Mac computers, you might try playing with the speaker/amp emulations available in the Garage Band program to expand your understanding of haw distortion can be used for enhancing a signal.

Art
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Old 21st November 2019, 07:00 PM   #12
bentoronto is online now bentoronto  Canada
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Art - if you re-read my post, you'll see I don't pre-judge how a sound originates or is modified. BTW, I probably like bagpipe music (from many countries around the globe) better than the popular opinion. Moreover, I enjoy music from everywhere and all periods and instruments and attend concerts of the same. (Went to a great Partch concert in the Disney Hall. See Harry Partch in Wiki)

My point is that musicians should have a choice about how to shape their sounds. Simply opting to play whatever happens to be coincidentally coming out of a tube by virtue of how a mechanical engineer chose to lay out the grids inside the tube - that just isn't a musical judgment. Granted, there can be some bit of choice within the scope available of choosing triodes over pentodes or vice versa. But the musician is simply passive.

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Old 21st November 2019, 09:26 PM   #13
David Morison is offline David Morison  Scotland
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Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
My point is that musicians should have a choice about how to shape their sounds. Simply opting to play whatever happens to be coincidentally coming out of a tube by virtue of how a mechanical engineer chose to lay out the grids inside the tube - that just isn't a musical judgment.
Perhaps for the very first guitarists to use the very first electric guitar amps that might have been true, but for every guitarist since then, they absolutely have had a choice, and they continue to make that choice all the time.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 12:49 AM   #14
bentoronto is online now bentoronto  Canada
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Originally Posted by David Morison View Post
Perhaps for the very first guitarists to use the very first electric guitar amps that might have been true, but for every guitarist since then, they absolutely have had a choice, and they continue to make that choice all the time.
That's like saying aboriginal tribes have a choice in what shoes to wear.

Yes, musicians have a great many choices - esp with Garage Band or stand-alone synthesizers - including "classical" music makers. And tone/tuning/scale/rhythm choices.

But choosing which brand of tube amp to overdrive seems like a flat-earth approach for technical know-nothings who wouldn't know a fuzz-box from a germanium diode*. Like trying to decide if oak or mahogany is more comfortable for your shoe soles.

B.
* some folks may know that's a trick question
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Old 22nd November 2019, 03:59 AM   #15
Max Headroom is offline Max Headroom  Australia
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Has anybody tried a Variac as a speaker attenuator ?.


Dan.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 05:31 AM   #16
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Just came across this. Max, did you mean a common variac or a line-level, dual-gang autotransformer?

(@Ben, post#3 in above link's avatar is a fuzz face). But sir, a fuzz-box is a germanium diode.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 07:22 AM   #17
Max Headroom is offline Max Headroom  Australia
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Just came across this. Max, did you mean a common variac or a line-level, dual-gang autotransformer?.
Hi Allen, I am thinking an AC power variac wired as standard auto transformer like below but I don't know what the frequency response/sound would be like....maybe trendsetting lol.
The switchable shunt resistors are to keep control of overall impedance, an extra permanent shunt resistor directly across the variac would be wise and I am not sure about the series value.
variac 2.png

Or maybe something like this might work ?.....
variac.png


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Old 22nd November 2019, 08:26 AM   #18
akis is offline akis  United Kingdom
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"was sent at various levels from 1 to 8 watts (a 9 dB range) to an Epiphone 8” speaker, standard issue in the Valve Jr. combo “5 watt” amp."

What was the wattage of that speaker? Our speakers are 75W (stonehenge), 150W (tonkers) etc
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Old 22nd November 2019, 09:54 AM   #19
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
I don't know what the frequency response/sound would be like....
My variac is 500VA so can handle loads above 100 ohms, I don't think the lows are going to be a problem. I'd be interested to measure the self-resonance though.
Quote:
The switchable shunt resistors are to keep control of overall impedance,
I guess we aren't talking Voltage sources here.

What about derating the transformer for low voltage input?
Quote:
and I am not sure about the series value.
What's it there for?
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Or maybe something like this might work ?.....
Interesting. There may be some signal flux cancellation.

Last edited by AllenB; 22nd November 2019 at 09:56 AM.
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Old 22nd November 2019, 11:06 AM   #20
Max Headroom is offline Max Headroom  Australia
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I guess we aren't talking Voltage sources here.
I'm talking tube amp transformer output so it needs some minimum value of resistance as load.
Quote:
What about derating the transformer for low voltage input?
500VA is way past what's needed.
Quote:
What's it there for?
Attenuation and reduction of inductive component of load.
Quote:
Interesting. There may be some signal flux cancellation.
I didn't think it through or simulate, just a suggestion ?.

Dan.

Last edited by Max Headroom; 22nd November 2019 at 11:14 AM.
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