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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

crossover design- depth of field
crossover design- depth of field
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Old 1st November 2019, 06:57 PM   #1
drewan is offline drewan  United Kingdom
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Default crossover design- depth of field

Hi All,
I embarked on this projet 3 yrs ago having spent nearly a year reading this forum. There is so much knowledge here I cant begin to explain how humble I feel.
Anyway I built a three way with the Peerless 830452, SB satori 16mw8, and sb29rdc, crossed at approx 120 and 1800Hz. I designed the crossovers (many thanks to AllenB and Bwaslo) .
I have now reached a point where the speakers are totally and I mean totally invisible, BUT the downside is that the soundstage is two dimensional, and has no (illusion) of depth. is this something that can be designed in or does the speakers disappearing act kinda preclude that... one or the other?
I deliberately haven't posted any circuits etc yet cos I want to learn
many thanks
Andrew
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Old 2nd November 2019, 01:24 AM   #2
GM is offline GM  United States
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Greets!

Been there, done that!

Regardless, recommend using a sufficiently adjustable EQ to ~ match this response [less minor dips] as a starting point since it was a very successful ~1936 - 1984? two way 15"/horn studio monitor designed specifically to highlight/maximize speech intelligibility, singing vocals clarity. Because of the expo horn, it 'projects' a bit too far for some HIFI/HT apps since with some recordings it can put the singer in your lap at 12-14 ft on axis corner loaded in a typical USA size room, ditto with some 'bright' cone/dome tweeters.

Valencia FR | GM210 | Flickr

Obviously, it's tuned to 50 Hz and the XO notch at ~7-800 Hz can be ignored and of course your room is going to muck with it, but as a starting point you may get lucky finding a room curve you like.

For sure it's helped me 'voicing' many various rooms/systems way back when before DSP, etc., either didn't exist or priced higher than new Corvette with all the extras.

Compare the response to these two charts to get a 'feel' for how it relates and if successful, maybe you or someone else can work out some XOs, though assume that some frequency shaping filters will be required to make them work.

http://www.audio-issues.com/wp-conte...rt-610x677.jpg

https://cdn.surfacedstudio.com/2010/...son-curves.gif

GM
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Old 2nd November 2019, 01:35 AM   #3
sangram is offline sangram  India
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A description like that is near impossible to translate into a technical problem/solution.

I doubt it's an issue of FR or crossover design issue, you might want to consult dave's (planet10) notes about 'Downward Dynamic Range'. Much as a I dislike acronyms and marketing sass in a technical field, there is some smearing of low level detail due to poor cabinet construction and insufficient control over diffraction - mainly secondary effects that have nothing to do with actual crossover or driver selection.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 03:16 AM   #4
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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crossover design- depth of field
I didn't know about the perception of depth arising from speakers.

But as Toole explained, there is a major matter of taste between systems that offer good ambiance and those that possibly are more ping-pong in their stereo. As much as many of us cherish ambiance and disparage systems lacking it, that's not the same as z-axis localization.

Cues to perception of all aspects are established by the recording abetted by the engineer, more and more today with over-cooked recordings and synthetic instruments*. There are several cues to depth and we always pray that we are buying recordings made by engineers who understand perception psychology.

B.
*Anybody believe a keyboard has "a depth" somewhere (except in your mind)?
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Last edited by bentoronto; 2nd November 2019 at 03:19 AM.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 04:18 AM   #5
madisonears is offline madisonears  United States
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If the speakers really "disappear," they're probably not the heart of the problem. Seating location relative to speakers and other room aspects may be more important to realizing soundstage depth than drivers or crossovers or enclosures. Electronics can also play a part. A lot of SS gear will not provide enough ambient information, from source to pre to amp. I might get clobbered for this, but even cabling can contribute or detract.

You don't give us any information about the rest of the system, and it's all important.

Peace,
Tom E
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Old 2nd November 2019, 04:18 AM   #6
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drewan View Post
..is this something that can be designed in..
-yes.

Are you using a larger or smaller chamber for the midrange?
Is it sealed or ported?
..and particularly: are you using any "stuffing" in that chamber?
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Old 2nd November 2019, 10:11 AM   #7
Zuhl is offline Zuhl  England
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If you have a decent front end and the problem is with the speakers, the usual culprit for lack of depth is poor phase control. The speaker may well have an even response, low colouration, low distortion etc., but without good phase it will sound 'flat'.

With correct phase there comes that magical moment when you can see into the music and place musicians in a clearly defined spot separated from other musicians by space.

As always, posting your design and measurements and information about the rest of your system will help in diagnosing your problem.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 11:16 AM   #8
AllenB is online now AllenB  Australia
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Do you have secondary sources under control?
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Old 2nd November 2019, 12:16 PM   #9
mountainman bob is online now mountainman bob  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zuhl View Post
If you have a decent front end and the problem is with the speakers, the usual culprit for lack of depth is poor phase control. The speaker may well have an even response, low colouration, low distortion etc., but without good phase it will sound 'flat'.

With correct phase there comes that magical moment when you can see into the music and place musicians in a clearly defined spot separated from other musicians by space.
.
+1 ..... i’m a newcomer to dsp integration (hybrid passive/active setup) I think it’s the easiest way to figure it out, still quite elusive but if the stars align it’s really something to behold.
There’s some on here that might have a better handle on it than me, wesayso,pano,ro808,camplo,gm.......

Last edited by mountainman bob; 2nd November 2019 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 12:34 PM   #10
AllenB is online now AllenB  Australia
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Matching phase to high precision is, in itself, fairly pointless.

Plot the response of two sources up to a cycle of separation. The broadest region with the least variation is centred around 0 degrees.

Last edited by AllenB; 2nd November 2019 at 12:48 PM.
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