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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

crossover design- depth of field
crossover design- depth of field
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Old 9th November 2019, 06:47 AM   #81
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robintipp
Then this happened.
Correct, putting a decade between crossover points will prevent this problem. SL showed an example with only 2 octaves separation.

This can be done with no channel cascading, no EQ and only one extra filter. Are you interested?
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Old 9th November 2019, 04:26 PM   #82
Robbintip is online now Robbintip  Netherlands
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Thanks Alen,

Sure am interested.
The example you posted shows both cascading and paralleling + all-pass works even when mixing them.

So I've split them up to see what could be different...
I couldn't spot them this way.
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File Type: jpg Parallel-Cascading.jpg (471.3 KB, 87 views)
File Type: jpg Parallel-Allpass.jpg (460.8 KB, 84 views)
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Old 9th November 2019, 04:39 PM   #83
Robbintip is online now Robbintip  Netherlands
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Only when viewing the individual driver, the difference becomes apparent to me.
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File Type: jpg Alpass-LF.jpg (482.3 KB, 82 views)
File Type: jpg CascadingLF.jpg (486.4 KB, 82 views)
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Old 10th November 2019, 04:26 AM   #84
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Nailed it.

Only one of the lower two is correct, the one with the all-pass filters. Linkwitz has it summed up with this
Quote:
Originally Posted by SL
A maximally flat response is obtained when also the 200 Hz lowpass filter phase shift in the W channel is duplicated in the SW channel by an allpass filter with the same phase response.
Just for fun, here is a version with the tweeter polarity inverted.
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Old 10th November 2019, 08:38 AM   #85
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Back to the original question. My guess is simply, that the previous pair of speakers was poor, with phase issue!

A pair of stereo speakers shoud image prescisely without any "depth" illusion - unless there is some tricks done in the recording (eg. Pink Floyd). Some classical recordings may replay 3D space cues, with headphones! All of the depth we hear comes from reflections and interferences in the room!

A good test of issues with phase between a pair of speakers is to play monophonic signal, eg. pink noise of speech from radio. Image sould be sharp in the middle, but often eg. s's of speech are heard differently. This is preferably a room issue, not a fault in speakers.

It has happened several times to me and diy friends, that just one module of a pair of multiway speakers has wrong polarity, and this takes some time to hear! Then we hear depth, but in an unpleasant eery way!

Creating A Sense Of Depth In Your Mix
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Last edited by Juhazi; 10th November 2019 at 08:41 AM.
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Old 10th November 2019, 06:22 PM   #86
Robbintip is online now Robbintip  Netherlands
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Some information on the early device used by Pink Floyd: Azimuth Co-ordinator - Wikipedia

About the phase issue, I experienced it too when I made a polarity error on one of the midrange. Some sounds seemed to appear coming from centre behind me. I used steep (LR8) crossover slopes in 6-way speaker so it wasn't until I measured and saw the deep nulls that I realised what was happening.
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Old 10th November 2019, 09:45 PM   #87
drewan is offline drewan  United Kingdom
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OK, Thanks to everyone for their input. Much of the discussions about phase was waay over my head but thanks and I'm sure it helped someone.
The whole truth and nothing but...
As previously stated built these about 3 yrs ago, and then 2 yrs tinkering with the xovers AND POSITIONING.
I finally gave into swmbo and finished the cabinets. I laminated them. To preserve the positioning I put masking tape on the floor so I KNOW they went back in the same place.
I guess this is starting to sound familiar to some...
Thats when I had the problem. The speakers were totally invisible. The sound appeared to be emanating from an invisible screen 15-18 inches in front of the speakers. I was confused to say the least.
The speakers are now about 30" from the back wall rather than the 38-40" that they were, and sound wonderful.
I'm totally stunned that laminating the cabinets could make such drastic changes in sound,
but maybe I shouldn't be really as I am well aware that just 3/4in movement in any direction of the speakers in my room is noticible.
So has the answer got to be the change in diffraction?
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Old 10th November 2019, 10:15 PM   #88
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post

A pair of stereo speakers shoud image prescisely without any "depth" illusion - unless there is some tricks done in the recording (eg. Pink Floyd). Some classical recordings may replay 3D space cues, with headphones! All of the depth we hear comes from reflections and interferences in the room!
Almost all recordings have some depth to them. Reverberation is often used in mixing.

This is a good example of both with and without:

YouTube

The keyboard has some measure of depth, the vocals don't (or very close to that) - and in fact it's pretty rare for vocals on a good recording to lack some amount of depth.


I've gotten to hate this track from Rod (though even then it was never a favorite even if it is a good song), because I use it so often for image placement (..due to the way it introduces various "sources"):

YouTube

-this song along with real-time freq. response measurements showed me that fullrange driver's with "whizzer" cones were screwing up placement with added sources or "signal complexity" - typically referenced as sounding "confused" with complex material. This was almost exclusively because linearity within the "whizzer's" pass-band was constantly changing (relative to the signal or a more typical multi-way's result).
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Last edited by ScottG; 10th November 2019 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 10th November 2019, 11:17 PM   #89
Robbintip is online now Robbintip  Netherlands
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Wow haven't heard those in a long time, thanks.

YouTube
Try this as an alternative for the Rod Stewart song.

Some of these have me asking myself if they are recorded in SQ (quadraphonic) and we are trying to build speakers that are able to decode SQ by means of accoustics.
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Old Today, 07:48 PM   #90
Robbintip is online now Robbintip  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenB View Post
Nailed it.

Only one of the lower two is correct, the one with the all-pass filters. Linkwitz has it summed up with this
Just for fun, here is a version with the tweeter polarity inverted.
Playing around with VCAD is fun, but have strong doubts that the image I attached could be translated into the real world.
All LR12 slopes, IIR..
Not possible... Right?
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File Type: jpg LR12.jpg (97.5 KB, 7 views)
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