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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

crossover design- depth of field
crossover design- depth of field
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Old 2nd November 2019, 08:49 PM   #21
Robbintip is offline Robbintip  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
It is now time for anybody posting suggestion here to explain the relationship of their suggestion to perception on the z-axis.

B.
How do you perceive the Z-axis solely?

--Edit--
Never mind, seems you posted a more lengthy comment before I was able to post my question.

Fake depth can be realised by phase distortion in the frequency range where humans can still perceive it I suppose.
I think it is related to Q-sound and stuff like that.
One album comes to mind, 'Dark Side of the Moon'. Try the quadraphonic record on a stereo system.
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Last edited by Robbintip; 2nd November 2019 at 08:55 PM.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 09:09 PM   #22
tmuikku is offline tmuikku  Finland
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I remember a story: In the oldies when first volume faders were made for recording mixing consoles, they worked in reverse what is the norm today, volume went up towards the engineer. The engineer could the bring a sound closer by pulling the faders and farther by pushing them out.
So maybe speaker dynamics has to do with the z-axis, less variance in volume = less variance in depth? Maybe yours are so easy on the ear, so spl levels is more than you might have used to and the amplifier or speaker is compressing? Also, there is some very compressed music out there that is very much flat sounding.

Also, everyone must have noticed that a garden party heard from a distance has strong tilt in the frequency spectrum, treble is lost before bass with distance. Z axis has sounds from bright to dark, maybe the tweeter distorts and everything is too bright? Maybe the room is too bright? I don't know, just thinking out loud, wanted to subscribe

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Old 2nd November 2019, 09:14 PM   #23
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by drewan View Post
Many thanks to all.
Most seemed to think it was more a room issue, and GM's 'house' curves gave me ideas. Despite the system measuring almost ruler flat from 30-3k and then a slight rise of about 5dB to 20k at the listening position I decided to try bypassing the BSC part on the crossover and moved the speakers about 8in closer to the rear wall to compensate. Great result many thanks.

I'm now more than ever convinced speaker crossovers need to be specifically designed for the room they are going to be in

Mostly wrong.

However decreased pressure in that 100-400 Hz will increase depth, so removing BSC will do that.

However moving you loudspeaker closer to the wall perceptually decreases depth (..even if it does improve freq. balance to some extent.) In fact in this respect most loudspeaker positioning in rooms is wrong for generating the best depth perspective.

With a fairly typical loudspeaker design in a fairly typical rectangular room - this is (more often than not) the loudspeaker positioning that generates the best depth:

syst
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Old 2nd November 2019, 09:21 PM   #24
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by drewan View Post
For those interested the peerless is in a 40 litre box (Qtc about.303)originally built as BR but now sealed, the satori in 18 litres the same, sealed but lined not stuffed giving a Qtc a little over 0.5.
1st - (in relation to the midrange) try removing the lining on the walls. Generally the nearer the driver's are to flow-resistance material: the greater the decrease in depth. Bass reflex can also improve this.

Potential improvements from that point become more complicated - with not just a change in crossover, but also a change in tweeter (..and maybe even a change in baffle relative to driver depth offset in relation to the crossover).
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Old 2nd November 2019, 10:18 PM   #25
Robbintip is offline Robbintip  Netherlands
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Originally Posted by tmuikku View Post
Also, everyone must have noticed that a garden party heard from a distance has strong tilt in the frequency spectrum, treble is lost before bass with distance.
AFAIK the reason behind this is that air above is less dense, so it acts like a lens, a prism in this case. High frequency sound is still there, you just have to pisition yourself higher to be able to hear it.


On topic:
The Haas effect describes the unability of humans to differentiate between sound that have <40ms arrival time delta.
One of my friends translates this as: if the time-alignment is within a 40ms window, it's ok. You won't hear the difference anyway.
When he was photographing a sports event, he took rapid firing bursts of pictures at the start of the race. I told him: why don't you just set the shutter speed to 2 seconds? At least you will get it all in one shot!
He said: "Well, stupid... Then it'll smear all movement and render the picture worthless.."
I said: "You remember the Haas effect?"
Ever since, he knew the importance of time and phase alignment.

Room reflections are a bad thing too in my book. But at least you are able to conceive them consciously. Under the 40ms window, the picture will just be 'presented' to your conscious as rendered by the auditory system.
I think of it (and this is speculation) as an in-brain ADC conversion with 40ms sample time, a rate of 25hz.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 10:29 PM   #26
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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crossover design- depth of field
Quote:
Originally Posted by tmuikku View Post
I remember a story: In the oldies when first volume faders were made for recording mixing consoles, they worked in reverse what is the norm today, volume went up towards the engineer. The engineer could the bring a sound closer by pulling the faders and farther by pushing them out.
So maybe speaker dynamics has to do with the z-axis, less variance in volume = less variance in depth? Maybe yours are so easy on the ear, so spl levels is more than you might have used to and the amplifier or speaker is compressing? Also, there is some very compressed music out there that is very much flat sounding.

Also, everyone must have noticed that a garden party heard from a distance has strong tilt in the frequency spectrum, treble is lost before bass with distance. Z axis has sounds from bright to dark, maybe the tweeter distorts and everything is too bright? Maybe the room is too bright? I don't know, just thinking out loud, wanted to subscribe
Thanks for taking my question seriously. I think you've made a good start with two cues recording producers can use.

1. familiar loudness: if an instrument in an orchestra sounds softer than you'd expect RELATIVE TO the familiar loudness of other instruments, it may be further away

2. timbre (actually, sort of like oil painting where mountains in the distance are tinted toward the blue as would be the case in real life .... or maybe I have that backwards)

But I can't see how either of those has to do with niceties of speaker set-up.
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Last edited by bentoronto; 2nd November 2019 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 10:38 PM   #27
Robbintip is offline Robbintip  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentoronto View Post
Thanks for taking my question seriously. I think you've made a good start with two cues recording producers can use.

1. familiar loudness: if an instrument in an orchestra sounds softer than you'd expect RELATIVE TO the familiar loudness of other instruments, it may be further away
Loudness may be indicative of size too, right?

Quote:
2. timbre (actually, sort of like oil painting where mountains in the distance are tinted toward the blue as would be the case in real life .... or maybe I have that backwards)

But I can't see how either of those has to do with niceties of speaker set-up.
I can't either.
I think trying to reproduce a recording is completely different than producing a new one.
Should be an interesting topic too.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 11:14 PM   #28
scottjoplin is offline scottjoplin  Wales
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Originally Posted by drewan View Post
I'm now more than ever convinced speaker crossovers need to be specifically designed for the room they are going to be in
Any interaction from the room is detrimental to the 3D soundscape if it causes the cues we rely on to create the image in our minds to be distorted.
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Old 2nd November 2019, 11:34 PM   #29
bentoronto is offline bentoronto  Canada
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crossover design- depth of field
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Originally Posted by scottjoplin View Post
Any interaction from the room is detrimental to the 3D soundscape if it causes the cues we rely on to create the image in our minds to be distorted.
The same is true of headphone listening. There are all kinds of very important pinna cues that are trafficked anomalously with headphones. That may come as a surprise to some headphone enthusiasts.

Kind of strange for us to struggle with improving x, y, and z localization while in a concert hall, there is barely any kind of localization excepting imaginary.

B.
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Old 3rd November 2019, 12:03 AM   #30
Robbintip is offline Robbintip  Netherlands
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Spacing between microphones on the recording end, setting up your speakers accordingly on the reproduction end seems to be important. I think records like 'Jazz at the Pawnshop' anticipated speaker placement. I would like to know more of these.

I would think, that the better the dimensions are matched between recording and reproduction, the deeper the illusion of depth of field could possibly be.

Anyways, I'm off. Going to watch some birds with cross-eyed binoculars. I've been searching for the 'dissapearing blue tit' for years now.
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