You're right, it's a vented enclosure. I replied to the wrong link. My bad. Still learning to work with forums.
It's REALLY, REALLY hard for a novice to choose your setup. There a some many different drivers, enclosures, xo's en especially OPINIONS
. When I started this new endeavor I thought it would be a good/bad, black/white kind of situation but that appeared to be far from the thruth.I want to build something good that has been proven. I've read many good things about the Ariel and tl lines as a whole.
I know I should start with an easier enclosure but I wasn't planning to start a new hobby. I'm by no means an audiophile but I like a good sounding speaker. So i'm sure the Ariel will more then enough for my tastes.
Well, it might be if you can get the drive units. What people have said above, in essence, boils down to this:
A loudspeaker is not just a box which you can stuff any old drive unit into, or a filter that can be used with a random selection of drive units. Sadly, it doesn't work that way.
An enclosure is designed for a given drive unit, (the dominant factors being effective Qt [Qts + amplifier output impedance, series R from wire, connections, inductor DCR etc.], Fs and Vas.
A filter is designed for given drive units with given acoustical and electrical responses on a specific baffle.
If you change any of these, it affects the others. And this is before you account for design goals. With the Ariels, Lynn had a number, a few of which can be seen as:
-A frequency response similar to that of the ESL57, so a Blauert and Laws style declining response trend with a broad BBC / Harwood depression through the midband
-Moderately high sensitivity, with an average lurking around 90dB over the whole range.
-A relatively damped bass alignment to ~50Hz with a vent in close proximity to the floor boundary condition to enhance coupling.
-Drive units that required little correction in the frequency domain, other than to provide the target slopes & a degree of compensation for step loss
-Relatively low order electrical slopes (electrically the Ariel is in effect a damped 2nd order low pass on the midbass drivers & a low Q 2nd order high pass with damping shunt resistor & a hybrid Zobel on the tweeter).
-Low IM distortion for a speaker of that size, the method adopted being a relatively high crossover frequency in conjunction with the preferred filter approach.
You can't necessarily recreate all of these with different [midbass] drive units, even if you altered the low pass, as there aren't all that many drivers out there with a response like the old P13. For better or worse, priorities have changed since it was designed. You can recreate some of its characteristics, but not all. Assuming you would wish to. I happen to like the Ariels within their design context, but I am also aware of what they don't do & there are things I'd personally do differently, which is not a reflection on them, but simply because we all have different priorities. YMMV.
A loudspeaker is not just a box which you can stuff any old drive unit into, or a filter that can be used with a random selection of drive units. Sadly, it doesn't work that way.
An enclosure is designed for a given drive unit, (the dominant factors being effective Qt [Qts + amplifier output impedance, series R from wire, connections, inductor DCR etc.], Fs and Vas.
A filter is designed for given drive units with given acoustical and electrical responses on a specific baffle.
If you change any of these, it affects the others. And this is before you account for design goals. With the Ariels, Lynn had a number, a few of which can be seen as:
-A frequency response similar to that of the ESL57, so a Blauert and Laws style declining response trend with a broad BBC / Harwood depression through the midband
-Moderately high sensitivity, with an average lurking around 90dB over the whole range.
-A relatively damped bass alignment to ~50Hz with a vent in close proximity to the floor boundary condition to enhance coupling.
-Drive units that required little correction in the frequency domain, other than to provide the target slopes & a degree of compensation for step loss
-Relatively low order electrical slopes (electrically the Ariel is in effect a damped 2nd order low pass on the midbass drivers & a low Q 2nd order high pass with damping shunt resistor & a hybrid Zobel on the tweeter).
-Low IM distortion for a speaker of that size, the method adopted being a relatively high crossover frequency in conjunction with the preferred filter approach.
You can't necessarily recreate all of these with different [midbass] drive units, even if you altered the low pass, as there aren't all that many drivers out there with a response like the old P13. For better or worse, priorities have changed since it was designed. You can recreate some of its characteristics, but not all. Assuming you would wish to. I happen to like the Ariels within their design context, but I am also aware of what they don't do & there are things I'd personally do differently, which is not a reflection on them, but simply because we all have different priorities. YMMV.
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You're right, it's a vented enclosure. I replied to the wrong link. My bad. Still learning to work with forums.
It's REALLY, REALLY hard for a novice to choose your setup. There a some many different drivers, enclosures, xo's en especially OPINIONS
I want to build something good that has been proven. I've read many good things about the Ariel and tl lines as a whole.
I know I should start with an easier enclosure but I wasn't planning to start a new hobby. I'm by no means an audiophile but I like a good sounding speaker. So i'm sure the Ariel will more then enough for my tastes.
That is why I suggested the Elsinore speakers. They are not that hard to build, and should sound amazing. If you are specifically looking for TL speakers, look elsewhere. If you want superb sounding speakers that are also easy to drive (very good for tube amp, like the ones Lynn Olson himself uses), then this ought to be among the top choices on your list.
So basicly your telling me to forget about Ariel and build a tl with still available drivers? Damn! I really set my my on these puppies. Now i'll have to start over.
What about Academia50's suggestion:
QUATTRO-TL_Niels
Does anyone have a better suggestion? It needs to be on the slim size an doesn't need to go very low. Will be crossed over at 80Hz anyways .
I have a pair of ariels with the origional drivers that I built many years ago. I still like them. That said it’s a complicated build. In hindsight I might go for a frugal horn or micro tower with a tweeter added for the high end extension. More then a pair of the Ariel enclosures would turn me off because of the time involved.
I'm afraid so. Unless you can find a set of new P13s. An enclosure of any kind needs to be designed for a specific drive unit, and is optimised for that driver. The same applies to crossovers: they're designed for a specific drive unit in a specific enclosure, and will not work with anything else.
An alternative, as noted, is to take an MTM design you like & can afford, and make a quarter-wave enclosure for it. In many cases this is not a major issue and will not necessarily require a filter change.
In which case a TL loading is largely pointless. A sealed speaker is likely to be your best option.
Myself, I regard Mr. Lynn Olson as a speaker hero.
There is so much to like here: Ariel Speaker Page
It is unfortunate that Vifa discontinued the almost perfect P13WH-00-08 midbass.
I have no idea why they did this.
AFAIK, this was built around the MTM idea.
As my good Ozzie friend Rabbitz suggested, the Peerless 830860 might do much of the same things: Peerless HDS PPB 830860.
How to convert it to MTM? Like this: Vifa PL14WJ-.
An MT with a 5" bass is not going to be the last word in bass response. But might sound good enough in a small room.
There is so much to like here: Ariel Speaker Page
It is unfortunate that Vifa discontinued the almost perfect P13WH-00-08 midbass.
I have no idea why they did this.
AFAIK, this was built around the MTM idea.
As my good Ozzie friend Rabbitz suggested, the Peerless 830860 might do much of the same things: Peerless HDS PPB 830860.
How to convert it to MTM? Like this: Vifa PL14WJ-.
An MT with a 5" bass is not going to be the last word in bass response. But might sound good enough in a small room.
Elsinore speaker kit
You could do much worse than considering the Elsinore.
Even if not for that speaker the drivers seem to be excellent value and somewhat close to your location
You could do much worse than considering the Elsinore.
Even if not for that speaker the drivers seem to be excellent value and somewhat close to your location
So basicly your telling me to forget about Ariel and build a tl with still available drivers? Damn! I really set my my on these puppies. Now i'll have to start over.
What about Academia50's suggestion:
QUATTRO-TL_Niels
Does anyone have a better suggestion? It needs to be on the slim size an doesn't need to go very low. Will be crossed over at 80Hz anyways .
You have said that the budget is somewhat limited, so I want to clarify that the transducers of this TL are not cheap, the JA8008 was replaced by the JA8008-HMQ model, and the Audax TW034 tweeter is still manufactured (I think) but must be attached to a Waveguide to integrate correctly with the mid-bass. The xover kit components are of high quality and price too.
The cabinet combines the benefits of a TL and a folded horn, with a precise objective, to achieve good SPL with high sensitivity transducers, to be coupled to tube amplifiers of reduced powers. (SET).
The latest versions are suitable for SS or tubes, but prices are further removed.
So maybe you should forget it.
Sorry for the bad advice. I just wanted to help, I am not a speaker developer, and I always built proven and recognized kits.
I don't think you said what amplifier you have in mind, SS, tubes, power?
I think we should start there, so that the most knowledgeable and experienced that I can give you more precise advice to your aspirations and / or needs.
And knowing the size of the room would also help!
A transmission line takes the out-of-phase rear pressure wave off the speaker cone, bounces it around a few twists and turns, and pushes this delayed distorted sound through a small bottom hole into your room to mix with the earlier perfect-launch perfect-polar directivity front pressure wave perfectly-aimed at your ears.
The 2-way Ariel has a 3.8kHz T-M crossover, high enough to affect transients on solo instruments.
Consider investing most of your speaker budget building the best stereo pair 3-way full range design possible for your room. Then decide on small surround speakers.
-----------
There are benefits to building a pair of high quality 3-ways with -F3 ~30Hz to generate an optimal stereo soundstage, and locating one subwoofer where it both smooths bass room modes and generates mono 20-40Hz deep bass.
1) Stereo bass down to 20Hz has been produced in low distortion, high SPL since 1982 on CDs, DVD-As, SACDs, and 5.1 movies.
2) Most people with normal hearing can identify the difference between stereo vs. mono bass. Stereo bass has phase for location.
3) At frequencies below 80Hz most people with normal hearing cannot isolate the physical location of the woofer.
-----Expert listeners can isolate location of woofers down to 60Hz by focusing on impact harmonics, port noise, upper harmonic distortion.
4) Not being able to locate the subwoofer is a good cost simplification, but summing low bass into mono degrades true stereo recordings.
5) With stereo woofers & subwoofers, any out-of-phase bass information in a true stereo (acoustic) recording is reproduced properly at full level, adding immensely to the perceived width and depth of the room in which the recording was made.
Earl Geddes: “The mains should be designed for the best possible direct field with as flat a power response as possible. Equalization of room effects on the mains could only make the sound worst.”
=======
For the sealed midrange, a maximally damped Qtc=0.58 total open volume allows the front 70% to be constructed with just on-side absorption material for fast transient pressure launch, followed by a 30% tapered rear volume filled with fiberglass absorption material to remove resonances. A simple slanted rear side board can create the taper.
The 2-way Ariel has a 3.8kHz T-M crossover, high enough to affect transients on solo instruments.
Consider investing most of your speaker budget building the best stereo pair 3-way full range design possible for your room. Then decide on small surround speakers.
-----------
There are benefits to building a pair of high quality 3-ways with -F3 ~30Hz to generate an optimal stereo soundstage, and locating one subwoofer where it both smooths bass room modes and generates mono 20-40Hz deep bass.
1) Stereo bass down to 20Hz has been produced in low distortion, high SPL since 1982 on CDs, DVD-As, SACDs, and 5.1 movies.
2) Most people with normal hearing can identify the difference between stereo vs. mono bass. Stereo bass has phase for location.
3) At frequencies below 80Hz most people with normal hearing cannot isolate the physical location of the woofer.
-----Expert listeners can isolate location of woofers down to 60Hz by focusing on impact harmonics, port noise, upper harmonic distortion.
4) Not being able to locate the subwoofer is a good cost simplification, but summing low bass into mono degrades true stereo recordings.
5) With stereo woofers & subwoofers, any out-of-phase bass information in a true stereo (acoustic) recording is reproduced properly at full level, adding immensely to the perceived width and depth of the room in which the recording was made.
Earl Geddes: “The mains should be designed for the best possible direct field with as flat a power response as possible. Equalization of room effects on the mains could only make the sound worst.”
=======
For the sealed midrange, a maximally damped Qtc=0.58 total open volume allows the front 70% to be constructed with just on-side absorption material for fast transient pressure launch, followed by a 30% tapered rear volume filled with fiberglass absorption material to remove resonances. A simple slanted rear side board can create the taper.
Attachments
Scottmoose has explained it really well.
I too question the use of a TL when going to 80Hz. I maintain that the important part of choice is to nail down the use application as that determines the important parameters and cuts out those speakers that are not suitable. You may want to spell out exactly how they are to be used and the desired outcome.
For well designed sensible speakers have a look at some of Jeff Bagby's. He seems to add only what is required to get the job done and ignore what is trendy.
AFAIK Steve it was because the tooling was getting worn out (the several owner / factory changes probably haven't helped), and that design priorities have changed somewhat in the c. 30 years since it was introduced. It's quite a lossy unit, and the motor isn't up to some more recent designs etc. Personally I'd like to see them bring it back with some upgrades, but YMMV.
FWIW, I'd say the closest units now (purely in terms of broad priorities of having an extended smooth response) are probably:
(Expensive end)
-Seas W15LY001 Nextel
-Scan Revelator 15W/8530K00
-Audio Technology 4H 52 06 13
(More affordable)
-Seas ER15RLY, CA15RLY & U16RCY/P
-Scan 15W/8434G00
-Monacor SPH-145HQ
So no tl line ether. Back to the drawing board!
So I was thinking of the following setup:
3 MTM 2-way for front speakers. Not sure closed or ported. I like clean sound so probably going closed. They need to be MTM since the center speaker is going to be mounted horizontally under the tv.
The back speakers need to be as small as possible but still sound ok. So a close 2-way MT speaker.
For the subwoofers I have 3 possibilities:
1. 2 subwoofers mono/stereo behind couch 1.5m apart.
2. 2 subwoofers mono/stereo behind front speakers against wall
3. 1 subwoofers behgind couch
I read somewhere that placing 2 subwoofers in the room helps with room modes and it is better to go mono then stereo. I'm not sure that 1.5m apart is gonna cut it.
Am I on the right track here?
So I was thinking of the following setup:
3 MTM 2-way for front speakers. Not sure closed or ported. I like clean sound so probably going closed. They need to be MTM since the center speaker is going to be mounted horizontally under the tv.
The back speakers need to be as small as possible but still sound ok. So a close 2-way MT speaker.
For the subwoofers I have 3 possibilities:
1. 2 subwoofers mono/stereo behind couch 1.5m apart.
2. 2 subwoofers mono/stereo behind front speakers against wall
3. 1 subwoofers behgind couch
I read somewhere that placing 2 subwoofers in the room helps with room modes and it is better to go mono then stereo. I'm not sure that 1.5m apart is gonna cut it.
Am I on the right track here?
Read Geddes on multiple subwoofers but I had 7 small ones for home theatre in the last set-up. 2 as stands for the L&R and the others scattered at semi random places [ ie: where I could find room for them] and it worked well.
But I was lucky and got the subs cheap at a closing down sale $99- each.
Simple MT is OK really for home theatre, so long as the drivers are good ones there is no real need to go MTM
But I was lucky and got the subs cheap at a closing down sale $99- each.
Simple MT is OK really for home theatre, so long as the drivers are good ones there is no real need to go MTM
Not really.
MTM's have a narrow radiation pattern making them a poor choice for centre speakers because people sitting off-axis on the couch will experience cancellation dips. Good quality centre speakers are 3 ways with the tweeter above the midrange or coaxial and woofers to the side. The much longer wavelength at the top of the woofer passband avoids the cancellation dips.
The only practical way to get high quality sub 80 Hz reproduction in the home is with distributed subwoofers, carefully placed and carefully setup using DSP. Two subwoofers are substantially better than one when used in this way. Three or four are likely to bring significant further gains with more bringing progressively lesser and lesser gains. If the subs cannot be placed in good locations w.r.t. the room modes the benefits are lessened and if they are not DSP controlled then they are of little benefit w.r.t. sound quality but may successfully provide loud and deep sounds for films.
Ok so if I understand you correctly, the midwoofers on a MTM both play midrange frequency that tend to cancel each other out. If there is only one mid range speaker then this won't be a problem.
About the woofers: multiple subwoofers is the way to go. I was thinking of 4 8" subwoofers.
Do you have examples of good diy kits or builds for center and left/right speakers?
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