Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

XO Steepness outside critical hearing range.
XO Steepness outside critical hearing range.
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 2nd October 2019, 09:43 PM   #1
Borotech is offline Borotech  Sweden
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2018
Default XO Steepness outside critical hearing range.

There are alot of discussions about crossover steepness. But regardless of one prefers steep crossovers or more gradual ones people seems to treat the question the same no matter the intended frequency range. But I wonder if the potential drawbacks with at steep crossover really matter in high enough frequencies?
Outside the critical hearing range it shouldn't matter too much as long as there isn't to much cancelation going on. If there is a 360 degree offset between the drivers, who would notice anything at all at 4000Hz? Or am I missing anything?
And if I am correct in my assumption, at what frequency would you say the potential drawbacks of lets say a 4th order crossover starts to disapear?

Last edited by Borotech; 2nd October 2019 at 09:43 PM. Reason: Spelling/Grammar
  Reply With Quote
Old 2nd October 2019, 10:13 PM   #2
CharlieLaub is offline CharlieLaub  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Michigan
From your post I get the idea that you do not comprehend or understand about the phase and group delay implications of high-order crossovers. Unless you are implementing this crossover with an FIR filter for which you can independently choose the phase response, a high order crossover will disturb the phase response relatively far away from the crossover point as well as cause a significant peak in the group delay at the crossover point. Both of these are generally considered bad, and have been tested as such sonically.

Also, I would not consider a 4th order crossover to be "high order".

The other thing to note is that the order is not so much a problem as is whether the crossover filter contains a pole with a high Q, which is going to cause the peaking group delay. In general, the sharper the rollover in the frequency response from passband to transition band the higher Q will be the pole closest to the crossover frequency and the more the group delay. This is the case within the same "order" of crossover filter.
__________________
Visit my Audio Web Page <<--CLICK TO LEARN MORE-->> Get my LADSPA plugins

Last edited by CharlieLaub; 2nd October 2019 at 10:27 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2019, 10:52 AM   #3
YSDR is online now YSDR  Europe
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Although the human hearing is the most sensitive for SPL around 3-4kHz, this does not necessarily mean that it's the most sensitive range for timing differences.

The best way to experience the effect of timing delay of crossovers is to compare the same DSP with IIR (minimum phase) then with FIR (linear phase) filters with the same slope, imo. Blindly of course.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2019, 12:31 PM   #4
phase_accurate is offline phase_accurate
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Switzerland
Quote:
The best way to experience the effect of timing delay of crossovers is to compare the same DSP with IIR (minimum phase) then with FIR (linear phase) filters with the same slope, imo. Blindly of course.
It depends whether you want to test the audible differences between FIR and IIR in general or just the group-delay properties. If you want to test the audibility of group-dely then you should always test with IIR and add the group-delay distortion by means of allpass filters because IIR and FIR differ in other properties than just group-delay distortion.

Regards

Charles
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd October 2019, 01:01 PM   #5
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Quote:
Originally Posted by phase_accurate View Post
It depends whether you want to test the audible differences between FIR and IIR in general or just the group-delay properties. If you want to test the audibility of group-dely then you should always test with IIR and add the group-delay distortion by means of allpass filters because IIR and FIR differ in other properties than just group-delay distortion.

Regards

Charles
Hi Charles, my method for trying to test for audible differences from group delay has been to use FIR files that are identical, where the only variable is whether the crossovers are linear or minimum phase (IIR).
(Using complementary LRs)
Do you see any issues with that method?

As for hearing differences in FIR and IIR in general.....
I find this is really tricky because most IIR-only dsps have such a relatively low IIR filter count availability (compared to embedding nearly unlimited IIR filters in FIR).
I've found I have to constrain the FIR file to however many IIR filters the IIR-only dsp can manage, and copy them and the IIR crossovers into FIR.
Doing that, I've never heard a difference between IIR using FIR, and straight IIR.
Make sense?
  Reply With Quote

Reply


XO Steepness outside critical hearing range.Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Critical freq range for localizing sound sources. mashaffer Multi-Way 10 13th September 2018 08:26 AM
The importance of crossover steepness CopperTop PC Based 150 5th March 2015 03:47 PM
line arrays, widerange mid drivers, & crossovers in the "critical range" darkmoebius Full Range 20 4th November 2010 05:32 PM
My hearing goes to only 11khz. Help me select a wide-range driver without a whizzer. mscommerce Full Range 7 18th August 2010 03:46 PM
keeping XO out of critical hearing range - myth? dvdwmth Multi-Way 6 11th December 2004 10:17 AM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 04:49 AM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 15.00%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2019 diyAudio
Wiki