I've tried to read up on all the existing threads in this genre between audioholics, audiokarma, and DIY audio.
Here's what I've got:
C-Notes...was very impressed by them when I built them a few weeks ago. As of this AM a set of Carmody Classix II arrived and I completed them about an hour ago. I'm super impressed by both, the Classix II are on a whole new level which makes me feel there is a lot of potential in DIY as has been voiced many times from a price/performance plus pride of building perspective.
I have a lot of full systems of note including Linkwitz LX521, KEF107, etc. but I realized I really do spend the majority of my time at my computer desk so I have set out to build a near field system to enjoy music here. I've got a rolls box to bring in a small M&K 70B dual 8" sub to supplement the bass and my audio all comes direct from my PC into a DAC and into a rolls box followed by a McCormack DNA .5.
So what should I build next? Here are some things that may factor in:
End to end kit and components for less than $500 for the pair is the next step unless there is something incredibly compelling 'right above' that price point.
1. Has to be good for near field listening. I think that from what I have read this eliminates both of the HiVi kids as one is rumored to not be greatest for extreme nearfield listening and the other is a larger 3 way that wouldn't image or be suitable. I have also heard that the Speedters won't be stellar for that purpose.
2. I don't want a ruthless monitor. I picked up some JBL 308P's and they were so accurate that any imperfect music sounded terrible. I want to be able to enjoy all kinds of music so the attribute of being over ruthless like that is not something I desire. Accurate - yet. So much so that distortion guitar is so grainy/granular that i can see it's component atoms is not something I want.
3. I'm okay with non-flat response if it sounds good for music - that's what these are for, not for recording purposes.
4. At minimum I want to be able to buy a precut baffle board, I don't want to have to route one do round-overs, etc.
5. If it has it's own flat pack or will fit into an existing cabinet sold at parts express, denovo, etc. that would be a bonus.
Thoughts on what's out there that might fit the bill?
Thoughts on the existing things I see...and I'm assuming MT is the only option for near field or the image would break up as soon as I went to an MTM or some such.
1. Overnight Sensations: Lateral to the C-Notes and another Carmody design. Not likely a step up from the Classix II.
2. Parts Express Dayton BR-1. Not many people have spoken to or compared these to other things but maybe they are lateral? Maybe with Murphy Mods they are slightly superior? I'm just speculating.
3. Affordable Accuracy Monitor permutation of the BR1 ... seems like they are not being made any more, when I checked Philharmonic Audio's site they were not shipping product.
4. GR Research XLS Encore: Seems like it is likely lateral to the classix II but different? Again, this is what the thread is for, level set me and give me comparisons and advice.
5. Parts Express Samba MT?
6. Parts Express Tritrix MT?
7. Parts Express Hitmaker: From everything I'm reading is monitor oriented and may be 'ruthless'
8. Some form of waveguide based design? Diy Soundgroup HTM-8 may fit the bill but I don't know how it would do nearfield or if it would be ruthless/sound like the JBL 308P that i returned.
9. Dipole? DIY soundgroup Ion 4 Plus?
10. DIY soundgroup volts?
11. DIY soundgroup Apollo 7 MT?
12. DIY soundgroup Helix Dome MT?
13. DIY Soundgroup The Speedster?
14. DIY Soundgroup S2000....likely a step down a bit or at best lateral?
15. Meniscus Armonicos?
16. Meniscus Blues?
17. Meniscus Continuum II?
18. Meniscus Docere?
19. Meniscus Nephilia?
20. Meniscus Piccolo?
21. Meniscus Soprano?
22. Meniscus Spitfire seem like they would be really interesting.
23. Meniscus Tributes
24. Madisound SR71 (would this be an upgrade? Lots of repeat complaints of shrill highs)
25. Madisound Seas Loki...coaxial...might be interesting but I read NOTHING about them.
26. Madisound Seas Adun
27. Madisound Zaph Audio ZA 5.2
28. Madisound Seas Mimir 2
29. Hivi DIY 2.2A...keeping hearing this isn't good for near field.
I know that's pretty exhaustive but hopefully there's even more out there that I'm missing. If there are consumer/completed speakers on the used market I should be looking at I'd look outside of DIY but the value from DIY is so great that I still might be better building regardless.
Thanks all and I'm just beyond excited by DIY audio!
John
Here's what I've got:
C-Notes...was very impressed by them when I built them a few weeks ago. As of this AM a set of Carmody Classix II arrived and I completed them about an hour ago. I'm super impressed by both, the Classix II are on a whole new level which makes me feel there is a lot of potential in DIY as has been voiced many times from a price/performance plus pride of building perspective.
I have a lot of full systems of note including Linkwitz LX521, KEF107, etc. but I realized I really do spend the majority of my time at my computer desk so I have set out to build a near field system to enjoy music here. I've got a rolls box to bring in a small M&K 70B dual 8" sub to supplement the bass and my audio all comes direct from my PC into a DAC and into a rolls box followed by a McCormack DNA .5.
So what should I build next? Here are some things that may factor in:
End to end kit and components for less than $500 for the pair is the next step unless there is something incredibly compelling 'right above' that price point.
1. Has to be good for near field listening. I think that from what I have read this eliminates both of the HiVi kids as one is rumored to not be greatest for extreme nearfield listening and the other is a larger 3 way that wouldn't image or be suitable. I have also heard that the Speedters won't be stellar for that purpose.
2. I don't want a ruthless monitor. I picked up some JBL 308P's and they were so accurate that any imperfect music sounded terrible. I want to be able to enjoy all kinds of music so the attribute of being over ruthless like that is not something I desire. Accurate - yet. So much so that distortion guitar is so grainy/granular that i can see it's component atoms is not something I want.
3. I'm okay with non-flat response if it sounds good for music - that's what these are for, not for recording purposes.
4. At minimum I want to be able to buy a precut baffle board, I don't want to have to route one do round-overs, etc.
5. If it has it's own flat pack or will fit into an existing cabinet sold at parts express, denovo, etc. that would be a bonus.
Thoughts on what's out there that might fit the bill?
Thoughts on the existing things I see...and I'm assuming MT is the only option for near field or the image would break up as soon as I went to an MTM or some such.
1. Overnight Sensations: Lateral to the C-Notes and another Carmody design. Not likely a step up from the Classix II.
2. Parts Express Dayton BR-1. Not many people have spoken to or compared these to other things but maybe they are lateral? Maybe with Murphy Mods they are slightly superior? I'm just speculating.
3. Affordable Accuracy Monitor permutation of the BR1 ... seems like they are not being made any more, when I checked Philharmonic Audio's site they were not shipping product.
4. GR Research XLS Encore: Seems like it is likely lateral to the classix II but different? Again, this is what the thread is for, level set me and give me comparisons and advice.
5. Parts Express Samba MT?
6. Parts Express Tritrix MT?
7. Parts Express Hitmaker: From everything I'm reading is monitor oriented and may be 'ruthless'
8. Some form of waveguide based design? Diy Soundgroup HTM-8 may fit the bill but I don't know how it would do nearfield or if it would be ruthless/sound like the JBL 308P that i returned.
9. Dipole? DIY soundgroup Ion 4 Plus?
10. DIY soundgroup volts?
11. DIY soundgroup Apollo 7 MT?
12. DIY soundgroup Helix Dome MT?
13. DIY Soundgroup The Speedster?
14. DIY Soundgroup S2000....likely a step down a bit or at best lateral?
15. Meniscus Armonicos?
16. Meniscus Blues?
17. Meniscus Continuum II?
18. Meniscus Docere?
19. Meniscus Nephilia?
20. Meniscus Piccolo?
21. Meniscus Soprano?
22. Meniscus Spitfire seem like they would be really interesting.
23. Meniscus Tributes
24. Madisound SR71 (would this be an upgrade? Lots of repeat complaints of shrill highs)
25. Madisound Seas Loki...coaxial...might be interesting but I read NOTHING about them.
26. Madisound Seas Adun
27. Madisound Zaph Audio ZA 5.2
28. Madisound Seas Mimir 2
29. Hivi DIY 2.2A...keeping hearing this isn't good for near field.
I know that's pretty exhaustive but hopefully there's even more out there that I'm missing. If there are consumer/completed speakers on the used market I should be looking at I'd look outside of DIY but the value from DIY is so great that I still might be better building regardless.
Thanks all and I'm just beyond excited by DIY audio!
John
If you have 2 amplifiers available, a $600 budget gets you into DSP.
For $205 you can purchase a MiniDSP 2x4HD, which will provide high functionality(FIR filters + time delay + bass boost) crossovers for a pair of high quality 2-way monitors.
$148 Satori MW16P-4 midbass + $33 SB26STCN-4 tweeter + $205 MiniDSP = $567
+ $40 wood stuff for low diffraction cabinet like Troels Illuminator(DSP handles time alignment)
OTHERWISE: look for a passive crossover design with a stepped baffle for time alignment like Troels SBAcoustics 61-NAC (Copyright 2016 © Troels Gravesen) with +LR2 -LR2 crossover circuits.
Using
$148 Satori MW16P-4 midbass
AND
$33 SB26STCN-4 tweeter
OR
$58 SB29RDC-4
For $205 you can purchase a MiniDSP 2x4HD, which will provide high functionality(FIR filters + time delay + bass boost) crossovers for a pair of high quality 2-way monitors.
$148 Satori MW16P-4 midbass + $33 SB26STCN-4 tweeter + $205 MiniDSP = $567
+ $40 wood stuff for low diffraction cabinet like Troels Illuminator(DSP handles time alignment)
OTHERWISE: look for a passive crossover design with a stepped baffle for time alignment like Troels SBAcoustics 61-NAC (Copyright 2016 © Troels Gravesen) with +LR2 -LR2 crossover circuits.
Using
$148 Satori MW16P-4 midbass
AND
$33 SB26STCN-4 tweeter
OR
$58 SB29RDC-4
You have a major contradiction between your stated requirements and half of the kits on the list. Specifically requirement No. 4:
"At minimum I want to be able to buy a precut baffle board, I don't want to have to route one do round-overs, etc. "
Only the kits you listed from Parts Express and DIY Soundgroup are available with precut baffle boards. To the best of my knowledge none of those on your list from Meniscus or Madisound are supplied with baffles.
There is one, however, from Madisound that is not on your list and comes with a complete prepainted cabinet. The SB Acoutics Micro 2-Way might be just what you are looking for and it fits nicely into your budget. The small size might make it ideal for desktop as well.
Personally I would put the money into the drivers and make the cabinet myself. I've done that with Jeff Bagby's Piccolo from Meniscus and am extremely pleased. They sound to me even better than I expected. Other very good choices from Bagby for you might be the Soprano and Continuum II. But again, you're going to have to build the cabinets yourself or have someone else do it for you.
"At minimum I want to be able to buy a precut baffle board, I don't want to have to route one do round-overs, etc. "
Only the kits you listed from Parts Express and DIY Soundgroup are available with precut baffle boards. To the best of my knowledge none of those on your list from Meniscus or Madisound are supplied with baffles.
There is one, however, from Madisound that is not on your list and comes with a complete prepainted cabinet. The SB Acoutics Micro 2-Way might be just what you are looking for and it fits nicely into your budget. The small size might make it ideal for desktop as well.
Personally I would put the money into the drivers and make the cabinet myself. I've done that with Jeff Bagby's Piccolo from Meniscus and am extremely pleased. They sound to me even better than I expected. Other very good choices from Bagby for you might be the Soprano and Continuum II. But again, you're going to have to build the cabinets yourself or have someone else do it for you.
Last edited:
I'm wholly lucid about the contradiction, I chose to be exhaustive in the hopes that someone would have a baffle board option or a reference to a denovo orderable baffle that would be a suitable work around. I'm game to make the cabinet with the exception of the baffle...I don't have the tools or the skills. I do have the tools and skills to just cut the rest of the cabinet however. Of the ones you have listed which have you owned? The piccolo? The Continuum II is out of what I spend for now but from my understanding their are a modernized LS3/5a which is super compelling.
I didn't even notice that the sb acoustics mini kits came with cabinets...that is compelling.
What are your thoughts on either of the hivi options the 2.2 and 3.1? For the price and what you get they really seem interesting. If I went for the 3 way stand mount with the ribbon I could set up some stands a few feet out from my computer desk and eliminate the completely near field caveat.
So between the soprano and tributes you preferred the soprano? Do you leverage a sub?
a
I considered full range but looking at the frequency response curves I don't think I would like the diminished high roll-off. At 46 and after listening to test tones for now I can hear about to 15khz and it seems like most of the full rangers roll off around 10k or a little above but this is purely speculative on my part.
a
I considered full range but looking at the frequency response curves I don't think I would like the diminished high roll-off. At 46 and after listening to test tones for now I can hear about to 15khz and it seems like most of the full rangers roll off around 10k or a little above but this is purely speculative on my part.
I can recommend the Madisound Seas Loki coaxial. Perfect for near-field listening. No pre-cut front baffle available, but the optional cabinets are nicely finished and worthy of stretching your budget. These have great imaging and work well in a smaller room with no subwoofer needed.
I do own them. I have an earlier version that I build around eight years ago. I believe the design is now on version 3. A very nice speaker for near-field listening and smaller rooms. I've had thoughts about using that same driver in a future project, mated with a large woofer crossed over around 200 Hz for greater power handling and deeper bass, to use in our great room.
I'm not aware of any third parties that offer precut baffle boards for those speakers on your list. Besides the general advice is to not cut the holes until you have the actual drivers in hand due the possible variations in size. If there is a local woodworking club nearby you might contact them to get someone to make the baffles for you. We get requests frequently at my club for help building various things.
No need to eliminate the Continuum II. It is certainly well within your budget of $500.
I have no comments on the hivi options except that they would probably put you right back into the zone you're in now. You've already tried two inexpensive kits and apparently are not satisfied with either one of them. There is no reason to expect the hivi's will be much different. So with a $500 budget why even consider them? Spend the money and get very good sounding drivers instead of continuing to compromise just to save a few bucks.
Last edited:
It's a possibility. It seems like the drivers are a step up in the ladder and it's a different type of driver (ribbon tweeter) but it might put me right back in the zone I'm in now but that's part of the audio addiction right? Trying different things, etc. I don't disagree with your point however. Before I built the LX521's I went through over 100 pairs of speakers. The concept of going to standmount speakers in my office is what rekindled my desire. Looks like it's about 400 dollars for all the non-cabinet oriented parts.
I think you are confused about Bagby's Continuum II from Meniscus. The tweeters are not ribbons. They are Morel CAT 308 Soft Domes.
And I don't think they will put you back into the type of sound you likely are getting from the inexpensive stuff you keep trying. You've never really said what's wrong with those. But if you want to move up to better sound, then you have to spend the money to get better drivers.
I was referring to the Hivi 3.1's regarding the drivers being a step up the ladder from the Classix II. I read the write-up on the Continuum...LS3/5a reimagined with modern drivers, etc. Morel tweeter, etc.
Nothing at all wrong with the Classix II at all, I really enjoy them. This isn't a matter of 'something wrong' with something I own but more a matter of trying different flavors, etc. I'm not averse to spending the cash as I investigate. The LX521's were a 4k investment in materials give or take but the Classix II at a low two hundred dollar investment at close range crossed over to a sub sound amazing to me as well. I also don't feel that expensive drivers are always the key to a design and that many cost efficient designs sound as good as or outperform costly designs since audio is subjective.
Example being the LS3/5a and Continuum designs...they aren't designed around ruler flat response but around a tailored flavor/color of sound. I find that to be a great recommendation because I know that flavor (I love british sound, have KEF 107's, 105's, and IMF RSPM's) and like it.
So likley your continuum recommendation is one I would enjoy the sound of.
I've also never owned coaxials throughout my audio journey so the Loki's might be great too. I also like that the Continuum are a sealed design.
Nothing at all wrong with the Classix II at all, I really enjoy them. This isn't a matter of 'something wrong' with something I own but more a matter of trying different flavors, etc. I'm not averse to spending the cash as I investigate. The LX521's were a 4k investment in materials give or take but the Classix II at a low two hundred dollar investment at close range crossed over to a sub sound amazing to me as well. I also don't feel that expensive drivers are always the key to a design and that many cost efficient designs sound as good as or outperform costly designs since audio is subjective.
Example being the LS3/5a and Continuum designs...they aren't designed around ruler flat response but around a tailored flavor/color of sound. I find that to be a great recommendation because I know that flavor (I love british sound, have KEF 107's, 105's, and IMF RSPM's) and like it.
So likley your continuum recommendation is one I would enjoy the sound of.
I've also never owned coaxials throughout my audio journey so the Loki's might be great too. I also like that the Continuum are a sealed design.
I searched on some of your threads on some of your builds and am trying to read up now. I had a list of questions for you but it looks like they might be answered in your other threads. You mentioned the Piccolo earlier, it looks like it's in the same price range and has similar displacement woofers to the Continuum, did you ever do a comparison or formulate an opinion on which model was more euphonic in general? I know that's a tough and unquantifiable term i.e. euphonic but I guess I can just say straight out, what was your preference?
I'm not sure why you think the Speedsters wouldn't work in a near-field setup. Here's what Paul said: "The speaker would work on a desk, although I might advise raising it a bit off the surface of the desk to keep bass response in-check." I see two distinct advantages with the Speedsters:
1. You like how Paul voices his crossovers.
2. A full kit including CNC'd cabinet is available at diysoundgroup.com.
I like the continuum a lot too, but I've only heard the original (RS28A tweeter) version.
1. You like how Paul voices his crossovers.
2. A full kit including CNC'd cabinet is available at diysoundgroup.com.
I like the continuum a lot too, but I've only heard the original (RS28A tweeter) version.
- Status
- This old topic is closed. If you want to reopen this topic, contact a moderator using the "Report Post" button.