Advise on which DIY build - Wavcor Ardent, Bordeaux, or other?

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Well, if you are building the LX521 then you will need a lot more than one amplifier..

Are we talking Chinese Tube Amps (with a high output impedance)? If so, high wattage or not (..push-pull vs SE)? or perhaps large solid-state amps? Class D amps? or maybe Nelson's small yet fantastic AmpCamp Amp?

The reason I ask is that with inefficient speakers you tend to need more power, and something like a typical SET amplifier would be a poor choice for louder playback on something like either the Ardent or Bordeaux..
 
I have also heard the Bordeaux. They were entered at MWAF last year, I believe, so my demo was brief. The image specificity lack was also my impression. I was rather disappointed, as I was expecting much more. Like I said- this was a brief demo, and likely not of a valid kind.

I am not of the DSP favoring group, and prefer passive networks. If you are to build Jon's Ardents, I would build them as he specifies.

You would be absolutely surprised how a cheaper driver can perform. A Corundum Peerless DA25TX is about $50, and it is a marvelously revealing tweeter for the price. The Peerless XT25 is about $30, and it is a favorite of many, no matter the model.

You would also be absolutely amazed at how much some drivers in commercial speakers cost, whether bought in bulk for reduced price, or just a well performing cheap unit. If you are to build a 3-way with $500 in drivers per side, and do the xover (no matter the method) justice, you would be surprised at the outcome. Given the proper R&D, it could rival a lot of higher end commercial systems- Just make sure the cabinets show your passion as well.

For an example, I know someone with a set of Tyler Acoustics Seas Excel MTMs using the W18 and Millenium tweeter. I tally this to about $870/channel in drivers alone. The cabs are finished in a well veneered rosewood, and look the part. I took my self-designed Glucinium Amor MTMs with Tang Band W4-1798S and 25-1743S tweeter, which retailed for about $660 for the sextet of drivers to his place for an invited demo. They didn't look like much in comparison as mine were in mule-boxes for mock-up, and the xover set on top of the cabs with wires all over. I had them fully dialed in with good parts and solid connections. I personally felt the Tylers did not have the clarity nor definition of my half the size and less than half the cost design. I wanted more from the Excel units, as I had heard them before in a different implementation and liked them more as well. It all comes down to how the implementation has been done.

Your mileage may vary...
Wolf
 
Okay I see what you're saying. It's just hard to believe a $500 tweeter I was looking at can sound as good as a $40.

If I'd build linkwitz, I'd get the amp he recommends. I'd get the higher watt. But man, that's alot of money in such a radical design. I'd wanna hear them. Have you heard them?
 
Okay I see what you're saying. It's just hard to believe a $500 tweeter I was looking at can sound as good as a $40.

If I'd build linkwitz, I'd get the amp he recommends. I'd get the higher watt. But man, that's alot of money in such a radical design. I'd wanna hear them. Have you heard them?

No. Orion's yes.

-it's a "point-source" dipole. It sounds like a "damped" planar dipole (like a controlled-diaphragm ESL) but with image specificity more similar to a small monitor.

I actually prefer the radial sound of his Pluto and Pluto variant (LX mini). ;)


..there are better sounding amplifiers than what SL recommended.
 
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I am in the midwest, and most of those have not been near me. I have heard other designs from Jon as implemented by others, and I can say he knows what he is doing. Ed LaFontaine built some Modula MTMs in an MLTL tower, these use the RS180 and the 27TBFC, and I was very impressed with the sound.

Let's be clear about the cost- Can a $40 tweeter sound as good as a $500 tweeter? Possibly. With a good design on the first and an average+ on the more costly, they could sound the same or very similar. Different designers do things differently, and drivers can sound very similar under the same circumstances. It's actually hard to discern a lot of drivers that sit in the $80+ range, and most of the difference is chalked up to materials and their relative costs, as well as manufacturing tolerances.

Sometimes, it's just a wash,
Wolf
 
As the title says, I need advice on what to build. The Wavcors are about $5k and the Bordeaux about $2300. Would the Wavcors be worth that much more? Has any heard them?

I was blown away by Bowers and Wilkins 802 Diamonds. I want to get as close to that as possible.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

if you like the 802 that much, nothing in diy will come close unless you are gifted and knows perfectly cross overs, drivers and knows how to do something similar or better...
 
AH you guys are the best! I'm learning so much! I'm certainly leaning toward the Linkwitz now. I realize that I was reading reviews about his earlier design. This thing has been recently updated! I need to learn more about why they're constructed the way they are. Need to learn the engineering behind them.

Right now I have Definitive Technology's BP9080X that I do love, which are bipolar. But these Linkwitz are DIpolar.
 
the bw 802 is a closed box, with a special home designed mid range

the woofers are also designed and built in house and reflex.

Unless you use the same drivers and the same very heavy curved massive cabinets, you are not even close to the sound of the b&w 802...

in the b&w line I preferred the 805 , and they can be too much, very revealing and detail heavy speakers, emotive too...
 
Right now I have Definitive Technology's BP9080X that I do love, which are bipolar. But these Linkwitz are DIpolar.


Dipolar is a significant upgrade from the typical commercial Bipolar design from the mid.s-up. :)

-an exception to this is the unusual (and objectivly poor) Distributed Mode Panel loudspeaker. Those can actually sound pretty good (..again, from the mid.s up.) These sorts of designs are inherently Bipolar.
 
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Dipolar is a significant upgrade from the typical commercial Bipolar design from the mid.s-up. :)

AH! This is good to hear! I read that dipole speakers are made to create a null at the listening position, why is this good?

I'm heavily leaning to toward the Linkwitz now. But the higher powered amp he recommends has shot up in price from the price he has listed on his website!

AT528NC 8-channel Amplifier (200W RMS per channel) $4,595.00!!

Can anyone recommend a good alternative that still good but less expensive??
 
No, it makes null's to the sides of the loudspeaker. Depending on the wavelength diffraction can be "nulled-out" (..that would other-wise wrap-around to the back of the loudspeaker).

Like the Bipolar design: you'll need plenty of room between this loudspeaker and the wall behind it.


..time to visit the amplifier section of the forum (assuming you've settled on the LX..). You'll need a fair bit of output per channel (multiple channels), particularly for the subwoofer section. My guess is that you'll be looking for one of the better (class D) n-core kit's (..with at least 200 watts at 8 ohms). There is also the Modulus-686.. (if you like to solder).
 
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I have been reading about them. It's hard to cipher through what people tell you; especially when those same people say they can hear differences in cables. I was going to build an 8 channel Hypex UCD400. Seems to be the best option! The NCore and the Modulus are cool by such low distortion. But it's hugely unnecessary. UCD400 already has distortion well below audible levels
 
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...It seems like you're an advocate for DSP instead of passive cross over. Do you have and recommendations?

I only recommend a solution that I believe will be suitable for the person involved. I don't use dsp for the time being and I would not be interested in it. If that should ever change, first I'll give Charlie's LADSPA plugins a test drive. Frankly, I hardly need more electronic junk around my desk, not to mention significant expense.
 
What do you recommend for a DSP then?
What is appropriate for me (general purpose or graphical hardware rather than dsp hardware) will almost certainly not be appropriate for you for reasons given above. What is appropriate for you will depend on your beliefs, what you find attractive in DSP hardware and the level of support required when it comes to deriving and implementing the filtering. If the products from minidsp lack the performance you are looking for then more upmarket ones from B&O or Hypex might be the place to look. Although I think that minidsp might be using B&O hardware? If this is the type of thing you are after then you would likely be wiser to look to people that are enthusiastic about it.

It would seem you are unfamiliar with open baffle speakers which have an enthusiastic following among some speaker DIY folk but far from all. They have a tiny presence in the commercial side of home audio mainly among a few boutique providers and almost no presence in professional audio. There are good reasons for this. Perhaps you will like them but I would suggest it would be unwise to build something of limited appeal that is big and expensive before establishing for yourself first hand that you like what they do.
 
Yeah this is the problem with DIY. Im VERY nervous about dumping $5K into speakers I never heard before!

The main thing I want in a speaker is a huge soundstage, with very detailed sound. That 3D effect. I love it!

Do you have any DSPs that you'd recommend? I saw miniDSP HD. But I looked at the measurement reviews and it doesn't perform well. About as well as $50 DSPs

The Bordeauxs do exactly that! Due to their damped open back design, and air motion transformer, they create an immense 3D effect with pinpoint imaging. They will be more revealing and fast sounding than the B&W speakers. B&W has had rolled off highs since the Nautilus speakers were first introduced in the 90s. B&W is fascinating and unique because they build everything in house, like Boston Acoustics used to when they were in business. They have had amazing cabinets and still do. They have a lot of cutting edge technology and always have. However there is no denying they have rolled off highs, softer sounding lows, and a warm mid-range. DIY speakers using Usher drivers had similar sound in my opinion. This is not a knock on B&W. It seems to me they just went for a more laid-back relaxed sound. The reason I have this opinion is because I sold B&W speakers at a high-end audio shop for about 15 years in the 80s until 2000. I have heard everything pretty much since then until a few years ago. This is due to my being connected in the industry. On the other side of this, I own an amazing pair of Bordeaux speakers I built. While I do not want to hear anything hyper emphasized in my music ever, I do want to hear everything that's there. Including a cough, fart or sneeze on stage or in the studio if it happens. I just want it to sound as real as the real thing, LOL. My point is the B&W speakers sound wonderful if that's what you want to hear, but the Bordeaux speakers play everything way more as it really was recorded.
 
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