Tried to find something several years ago when I just wanted buy speakers. Couldn't find anything that sounded good for classical even for $2,000 per pair that I was willing to spend. Even listened to some $5,000 Monitor Audio speakers that I thought sounded awful with classical. Way too much distortion. Salesman didn't like it when I told him that. Almost threw me out of the store. That's why I finally got into diy and glad that I did.
A properly designed and built speaker should not literally sound bad no matter what type of music it's reproducing unless the speaker is driven beyond its linear capabilities. Obviously how loud one plays the music, its frequency content and the listening environment all affect the outcome. One obviously shouldn't expect concert-hall sound levels with a speaker having only a 5" woofer, yet expectations of literally recreating an orchestral concert hall loudness with clarity and realism will always come up short no matter what speaker is used.
Paul
Paul
Paul,
I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make. If it's that I was trying to audition the speakers by playing them far too loud in the store, I don't believe that was the case.
As I recall they were a Monitor Audio model called the Gold, but their current Gold model is different so I can't compare it to the one I heard several years ago. I'm sure though that the woofer was larger than 5". Their new Gold model has 2 - 8" woofers.
There are reports from what I believe are reliable individuals that the price of commercial speakers does not always equate to sound quality. So the fact that a $5,000 per pair set of speakers doesn't sound good should not really be surprising. At least it's not to me. Ergo, DIY.
I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make. If it's that I was trying to audition the speakers by playing them far too loud in the store, I don't believe that was the case.
As I recall they were a Monitor Audio model called the Gold, but their current Gold model is different so I can't compare it to the one I heard several years ago. I'm sure though that the woofer was larger than 5". Their new Gold model has 2 - 8" woofers.
There are reports from what I believe are reliable individuals that the price of commercial speakers does not always equate to sound quality. So the fact that a $5,000 per pair set of speakers doesn't sound good should not really be surprising. At least it's not to me. Ergo, DIY.
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I took a quick look at Stereophile, and Monitor Audio speakers mostly use LR4 xo. The distortion you heard was propably phase distortion (Group delay).
I was surprised how much better piano, violin etc. instruments sounded with LR2 instead LR4 in mid-tweeter xo. (it was an easy test with minidsp when responses were eq'd flat before settin xo.) First order might be even better, as they say, but even harder to achieve without stressing the tweeter way too much (low end distortion)
I was surprised how much better piano, violin etc. instruments sounded with LR2 instead LR4 in mid-tweeter xo. (it was an easy test with minidsp when responses were eq'd flat before settin xo.) First order might be even better, as they say, but even harder to achieve without stressing the tweeter way too much (low end distortion)
This is a pretty contentious position you're taking here. I'm sure there are many reasons he could have not liked the speakers he listened to, other than phase distortion from 4th order slopes. Don't the Piccolos that he has now and likes have a 4th order crossover?
I remember auditioning some very well regarded and very expensive speakers a while ago and disliked them intensely, I found them far too forward. We are all different in the way we hear.
What I also found during that particular listening session was the sales persons insistence that a preamp with no tone controls was the only way to reproduce music.
I was only dabbling in DIY speakers then but though my own $200- build was better [ ie: suited my needs] than these $5k- behemoths. I was so unimpressed that I no longer even remember the make or model but they came from Adelaide and at the time were highly regarded
Curtains on the windows if WAF will allow, nice thick heavy ones.
What I also found during that particular listening session was the sales persons insistence that a preamp with no tone controls was the only way to reproduce music.
I was only dabbling in DIY speakers then but though my own $200- build was better [ ie: suited my needs] than these $5k- behemoths. I was so unimpressed that I no longer even remember the make or model but they came from Adelaide and at the time were highly regarded
Curtains on the windows if WAF will allow, nice thick heavy ones.
Group delay at typical mid/tweeter crossover points cannot be heard with accurately executed LR4 curves.
The reason that you hear differently, for example, compared to an LR2 is because of the different off-axis response, the different power response and the different distortion profiles, which are not always better with LR2.
Frequency Delay Dispersion | audioXpress
I’m not knowledgeable enough to be able to distinguish between different types of distortion or the sources of it. I just know that I'm very sensitive to distortion where other people either don't hear it or aren't bothered by it.
I thought that perhaps the salesmen in the stereo stores just didn't want to admit to the distortion, because it would ruin a sale for them. And that's certainly a possibility. But when I’m playing classical music at home my wife, who is actually a much more accomplished musician than I am, isn’t bothered by distortions that I find highly objectionable.
One of things that caused me to move up from my full range AN 10” Classics was a distortion that I can best describe as a fuzziness, particularly with strong violin passages. Whether that was Doppler distortion or something else I don’t know. But it’s not there on the exact same recordings with the Piccolos.
I thought that perhaps the salesmen in the stereo stores just didn't want to admit to the distortion, because it would ruin a sale for them. And that's certainly a possibility. But when I’m playing classical music at home my wife, who is actually a much more accomplished musician than I am, isn’t bothered by distortions that I find highly objectionable.
One of things that caused me to move up from my full range AN 10” Classics was a distortion that I can best describe as a fuzziness, particularly with strong violin passages. Whether that was Doppler distortion or something else I don’t know. But it’s not there on the exact same recordings with the Piccolos.
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My subjective difference was subtle and measured response and directivity and THD were same (diy 3 different 3/4-way project speakers) My MT xo is around 3-4kHz depending on my mood, with minidsp. One can't hear it right away, but a good solo piano recording tells it most easily (lots of harmonics). With sine weep there is no diffrence.
I am not a great believer in xo phase distortion, but I haven't figured out other explanations - in my case. Please try yourselves if possible!
I am not a great believer in xo phase distortion, but I haven't figured out other explanations - in my case. Please try yourselves if possible!
Note to LineSource, 5th element, and Pano,
If just one of you was insisting that I consider using wave guides for a small room, I could possibly ignore it. But with all three of you ganging up on me
, I'm going to have to look at it.
My initial reaction is that there is more of a downside than upside, but I could be mistaken. I'll spend some time researching it and let you know if I think it would be good for me. Thanks.
If just one of you was insisting that I consider using wave guides for a small room, I could possibly ignore it. But with all three of you ganging up on me
, I'm going to have to look at it.My initial reaction is that there is more of a downside than upside, but I could be mistaken. I'll spend some time researching it and let you know if I think it would be good for me. Thanks.
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First, I should have also stated that it's necessary to use quality components (drivers and crossover parts) but not necessarily uber-expensive ones. I wasn't implying you were listening too loudly, but that all speakers have limitations; if they are properly designed and built then operated within there capabilities, it shouldn't matter what type of music is played and not be limited to sounding good with only one or two types of music. I also firmly agree that the price isn't necessarily indicative of quality. I'm a speaker-DIYer, too, BTW.
Paul
Paul
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Been following this thread, and very interested. As a result I found this thread
benefits and drawbacks of waveguides
lots to think about there with your difficult room
benefits and drawbacks of waveguides
lots to think about there with your difficult room
I did exactly the same thing and couldn't hear any difference at all. Well aside from slight tonal balance changes due to the differing vertical off axis behaviour.
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Is it possible that some people hear various types of distortion differently than others hear it?
As I posted above, I seem to hear distortions when others listening to exactly the same thing claim to not hear any distortion at all.
A very interesting topic for Psychoacoustics. Have to see what Toole says about it in his book.
As I posted above, I seem to hear distortions when others listening to exactly the same thing claim to not hear any distortion at all.
A very interesting topic for Psychoacoustics. Have to see what Toole says about it in his book.
There are level-dependent distortions caused by the shape of our ears - inner and outer. Obviously those differ, hence different perceptions.
Not sure how much serious impact that really has, outliers excepted.
I have a feeling though that it is a speaker‘s ability to avoid triggering such distortions that make it play classical nicely - Bartok crescendi, distorted, are rather less enjoyable than guitar solos, slightly more distorted than already on the recording.
Not sure how much serious impact that really has, outliers excepted.
I have a feeling though that it is a speaker‘s ability to avoid triggering such distortions that make it play classical nicely - Bartok crescendi, distorted, are rather less enjoyable than guitar solos, slightly more distorted than already on the recording.