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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

SBA 741 vs. SBA 761 for Classical Music
SBA 741 vs. SBA 761 for Classical Music
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Old 11th September 2019, 10:45 PM   #61
mordikai is offline mordikai  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classicalfan View Post
Is it possible that some people hear various types of distortion differently than others hear it?

As I posted above, I seem to hear distortions when others listening to exactly the same thing claim to not hear any distortion at all.

A very interesting topic for Psychoacoustics. Have to see what Toole says about it in his book.
Hmm... How old are you? Have you had your hearing checked? I would go to the Klippel website and take some of their hearing/listening test.

I'm not trying to be a d**k with this line of questioning, but it's probably unlikely you have some significantly deviant hearing.
It is hard to know what other people are hearing compared to you.
I have had a few experiences with golden eared listeners and for the most part when they described what they were hearing I could then hear it. They did not think they were golden eared, they just thought of it as a learned skill from years of serious listening.
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Old 11th September 2019, 11:00 PM   #62
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peterbrorsson View Post
Maybe you have a hearing deficiency...
Entirely possible. But then why do I not hear any distortion at all on certain speakers - like the Piccolos? Or when attending live symphony or opera performances. Also didn't have any distortion issues with my previous AR-48s.

So maybe it's also possible that I'm just more sensitive to certain distortions than most. Don't know.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:00 AM   #63
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkitt View Post
First, I should have also stated that it's necessary to use quality components (drivers and crossover parts) but not necessarily uber-expensive ones. I wasn't implying you were listening too loudly, but that all speakers have limitations; if they are properly designed and built then operated within there capabilities, it shouldn't matter what type of music is played and not be limited to sounding good with only one or two types of music. I also firmly agree that the price isn't necessarily indicative of quality. I'm a speaker-DIYer, too, BTW.
Paul
Paul,

You are not just another DIYer. Your work is well known, highly regarded, and much appreciated by the DIY community at large.

And while my knowledge of speaker design certainly doesn’t compare to yours, I must respectfully take exception to the idea that there is equal performance regardless of music genre. I’ve heard it espoused by others and just can’t accept it.

The demands placed on speakers between Diana Krall and Mahler are so entirely different in terms of frequency response, dynamic range, and musical complexity that I don’t see how a speaker that sounds good for her is necessarily going to sound good for a symphony. The opposite can be true. If it sounds good for a symphony it will likely sound good for soft vocals or jazz. But not necessarily the other way around.

Go to any of the high end audio shows and see how many of the demo rooms are playing anything other than simple music with very limited dynamic range. I don’t think you’ll find many. They only want to play what makes their speakers sound good. Ask them to play Mahler and they will probably call security to have you thrown out of the hotel.

Last edited by classicalfan; 12th September 2019 at 04:06 AM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:05 AM   #64
Moondog55 is offline Moondog55  Australia
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But if it plays Classical well should it not also play everything else well?
Also there is a huge difference between Mahler and Stockhausen
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Old 12th September 2019, 04:18 AM   #65
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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Yes. I believe that's what I said. If it plays classical well it will likely sound good for other genres. But not necessarily the other way around.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:13 AM   #66
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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CF,

you seem to be ignoring what pkitt specifically and clearly said was important. DIYers know this simple fact.
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Old 12th September 2019, 02:31 PM   #67
pkitt is offline pkitt  United States
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I definitely appreciate your kind comments but would like to explain a bit more. Let's say I had a speaker (I wish!) that had a frequency response of 20 Hz to 20 kHz (+/- 0.1 dB), no more than 0.1 % HD and IMD over that frequency range, all while generating 110 dB SPL. Shouldn't any type of music this speaker played sound good as well as accurate to the source, and not favor any particular genre? I do agree that some music is easier to reproduce acceptably (a Mozart string quartet versus a Mahler symphony), and a speaker with lesser capability could sound quite good playing the Mozart while failing perhaps miserably playing Mahler due to intentional capability limitations. I guess my concern comes from the notion that one should design a speaker to favor some types of music over others in order to like what one hears, implying intentional mis-design, so to speak. Not accusing anyone of this, you understand. While I obviously prefer classical music over everything else (my wife was accomplished on violin, viola and piano, and I played trumpet), I do have some jazz (small and large) and other bits and pieces (but very few vocals). When people have come to my house with interest in buying some of my builds, I always encouraged them to bring their CDs that will best let them know if they like what they hear, and before we play their CDs, I play some of my demo CDs that have a wide range of music types (no Hard Rock, Pop, Metal, Hip Hop, Rap, Country, etc., however). I've sold at least 10 pairs of speakers and in only one case did a potential buyer apparently not like what he heard (and the CDs he brought were all downloaded vocal snippets having highly questionable quality IMO).
Paul

Quote:
Originally Posted by classicalfan View Post
Paul,

You are not just another DIYer. Your work is well known, highly regarded, and much appreciated by the DIY community at large.

And while my knowledge of speaker design certainly doesnít compare to yours, I must respectfully take exception to the idea that there is equal performance regardless of music genre. Iíve heard it espoused by others and just canít accept it.

The demands placed on speakers between Diana Krall and Mahler are so entirely different in terms of frequency response, dynamic range, and musical complexity that I donít see how a speaker that sounds good for her is necessarily going to sound good for a symphony. The opposite can be true. If it sounds good for a symphony it will likely sound good for soft vocals or jazz. But not necessarily the other way around.

Go to any of the high end audio shows and see how many of the demo rooms are playing anything other than simple music with very limited dynamic range. I donít think youíll find many. They only want to play what makes their speakers sound good. Ask them to play Mahler and they will probably call security to have you thrown out of the hotel.

Last edited by pkitt; 12th September 2019 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 09:33 PM   #68
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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SBA 741 vs. SBA 761 for Classical Music
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
Also there is a huge difference between Mahler and Stockhausen
One worked with ring modulators, the other didn't?
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Old 13th September 2019, 12:51 AM   #69
Moondog55 is offline Moondog55  Australia
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Old 13th September 2019, 04:51 AM   #70
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkitt View Post
I definitely appreciate your kind comments but would like to explain a bit more. Let's say I had a speaker (I wish!) that had a frequency response of 20 Hz to 20 kHz (+/- 0.1 dB), no more than 0.1 % HD and IMD over that frequency range, all while generating 110 dB SPL. Shouldn't any type of music this speaker played sound good as well as accurate to the source, and not favor any particular genre? I do agree that some music is easier to reproduce acceptably (a Mozart string quartet versus a Mahler symphony), and a speaker with lesser capability could sound quite good playing the Mozart while failing perhaps miserably playing Mahler due to intentional capability limitations. I guess my concern comes from the notion that one should design a speaker to favor some types of music over others in order to like what one hears, implying intentional mis-design, so to speak. Not accusing anyone of this, you understand. While I obviously prefer classical music over everything else (my wife was accomplished on violin, viola and piano, and I played trumpet), I do have some jazz (small and large) and other bits and pieces (but very few vocals). When people have come to my house with interest in buying some of my builds, I always encouraged them to bring their CDs that will best let them know if they like what they hear, and before we play their CDs, I play some of my demo CDs that have a wide range of music types (no Hard Rock, Pop, Metal, Hip Hop, Rap, Country, etc., however). I've sold at least 10 pairs of speakers and in only one case did a potential buyer apparently not like what he heard (and the CDs he brought were all downloaded vocal snippets having highly questionable quality IMO).
Paul
I don’t think that we really have any disagreement. But I would just express the idea in different terms. Specially, a speaker that sounds good with simple music may or may not sound good with more complex and demanding music.

Whether the differences are the result of usage intent, inferior components, poor crossover design, or anything else is not what I’m concerned with. Only that a speaker’s performance with one genre does not necessarily predict what it will be with a different genre. What prompted me to comment on this is that I have read posts and talked to people who claim otherwise. That if it sounds good with one kind of music, it will sound good with all kinds. I've heard this personally from responsible people within the industry and just can't accept it.

Last edited by classicalfan; 13th September 2019 at 04:54 AM.
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