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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

SBA 741 vs. SBA 761 for Classical Music
SBA 741 vs. SBA 761 for Classical Music
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:40 PM   #41
mordikai is online now mordikai  United States
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classicalfan- have you found any speakers that you like for the music you listen to? If you find something that suits you, you could look for a diy design that is similar.
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Old 10th September 2019, 10:33 PM   #42
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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Tried to find something several years ago when I just wanted buy speakers. Couldn't find anything that sounded good for classical even for $2,000 per pair that I was willing to spend. Even listened to some $5,000 Monitor Audio speakers that I thought sounded awful with classical. Way too much distortion. Salesman didn't like it when I told him that. Almost threw me out of the store. That's why I finally got into diy and glad that I did.
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Old 10th September 2019, 11:32 PM   #43
pkitt is offline pkitt  United States
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A properly designed and built speaker should not literally sound bad no matter what type of music it's reproducing unless the speaker is driven beyond its linear capabilities. Obviously how loud one plays the music, its frequency content and the listening environment all affect the outcome. One obviously shouldn't expect concert-hall sound levels with a speaker having only a 5" woofer, yet expectations of literally recreating an orchestral concert hall loudness with clarity and realism will always come up short no matter what speaker is used.
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Originally Posted by classicalfan View Post
Tried to find something several years ago when I just wanted buy speakers. Couldn't find anything that sounded good for classical even for $2,000 per pair that I was willing to spend. Even listened to some $5,000 Monitor Audio speakers that I thought sounded awful with classical. Way too much distortion. Salesman didn't like it when I told him that. Almost threw me out of the store. That's why I finally got into diy and glad that I did.
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Old 11th September 2019, 12:01 AM   #44
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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Paul,

I'm not exactly sure what point you're trying to make. If it's that I was trying to audition the speakers by playing them far too loud in the store, I don't believe that was the case.

As I recall they were a Monitor Audio model called the Gold, but their current Gold model is different so I can't compare it to the one I heard several years ago. I'm sure though that the woofer was larger than 5". Their new Gold model has 2 - 8" woofers.

There are reports from what I believe are reliable individuals that the price of commercial speakers does not always equate to sound quality. So the fact that a $5,000 per pair set of speakers doesn't sound good should not really be surprising. At least it's not to me. Ergo, DIY.

Last edited by classicalfan; 11th September 2019 at 12:03 AM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 05:57 AM   #45
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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I took a quick look at Stereophile, and Monitor Audio speakers mostly use LR4 xo. The distortion you heard was propably phase distortion (Group delay).

I was surprised how much better piano, violin etc. instruments sounded with LR2 instead LR4 in mid-tweeter xo. (it was an easy test with minidsp when responses were eq'd flat before settin xo.) First order might be even better, as they say, but even harder to achieve without stressing the tweeter way too much (low end distortion)
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:36 AM   #46
mordikai is online now mordikai  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
I took a quick look at Stereophile, and Monitor Audio speakers mostly use LR4 xo. The distortion you heard was propably phase distortion (Group delay).

I was surprised how much better piano, violin etc. instruments sounded with LR2 instead LR4 in mid-tweeter xo. (it was an easy test with minidsp when responses were eq'd flat before settin xo.) First order might be even better, as they say, but even harder to achieve without stressing the tweeter way too much (low end distortion)
This is a pretty contentious position you're taking here. I'm sure there are many reasons he could have not liked the speakers he listened to, other than phase distortion from 4th order slopes. Don't the Piccolos that he has now and likes have a 4th order crossover?
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Old 11th September 2019, 06:52 AM   #47
Moondog55 is offline Moondog55  Australia
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I remember auditioning some very well regarded and very expensive speakers a while ago and disliked them intensely, I found them far too forward. We are all different in the way we hear.
What I also found during that particular listening session was the sales persons insistence that a preamp with no tone controls was the only way to reproduce music.
I was only dabbling in DIY speakers then but though my own $200- build was better [ ie: suited my needs] than these $5k- behemoths. I was so unimpressed that I no longer even remember the make or model but they came from Adelaide and at the time were highly regarded
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:06 AM   #48
YSDR is offline YSDR  Hungary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
I took a quick look at Stereophile, and Monitor Audio speakers mostly use LR4 xo. The distortion you heard was propably phase distortion (Group delay).

I was surprised how much better piano, violin etc. instruments sounded with LR2 instead LR4 in mid-tweeter xo. (it was an easy test with minidsp when responses were eq'd flat before settin xo.) First order might be even better, as they say, but even harder to achieve without stressing the tweeter way too much (low end distortion)

Group delay at typical mid/tweeter crossover points cannot be heard with accurately executed LR4 curves.
The reason that you hear differently, for example, compared to an LR2 is because of the different off-axis response, the different power response and the different distortion profiles, which are not always better with LR2.

Frequency Delay Dispersion | audioXpress
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Old 11th September 2019, 08:03 AM   #49
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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I’m not knowledgeable enough to be able to distinguish between different types of distortion or the sources of it. I just know that I'm very sensitive to distortion where other people either don't hear it or aren't bothered by it.

I thought that perhaps the salesmen in the stereo stores just didn't want to admit to the distortion, because it would ruin a sale for them. And that's certainly a possibility. But when I’m playing classical music at home my wife, who is actually a much more accomplished musician than I am, isn’t bothered by distortions that I find highly objectionable.

One of things that caused me to move up from my full range AN 10” Classics was a distortion that I can best describe as a fuzziness, particularly with strong violin passages. Whether that was Doppler distortion or something else I don’t know. But it’s not there on the exact same recordings with the Piccolos.

Last edited by classicalfan; 11th September 2019 at 08:15 AM.
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Old 11th September 2019, 08:15 AM   #50
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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My subjective difference was subtle and measured response and directivity and THD were same (diy 3 different 3/4-way project speakers) My MT xo is around 3-4kHz depending on my mood, with minidsp. One can't hear it right away, but a good solo piano recording tells it most easily (lots of harmonics). With sine weep there is no diffrence.

I am not a great believer in xo phase distortion, but I haven't figured out other explanations - in my case. Please try yourselves if possible!
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