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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

SBA 741 vs. SBA 761 for Classical Music
SBA 741 vs. SBA 761 for Classical Music
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:12 AM   #31
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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Originally Posted by sebbyp View Post
I learnt some lessons in my implementation. I built the Kairos with translam cabinets and made some mistakes. I'm looking at the best type of cabinets and may go constrained-layer-damping, as I feel the drivers and design deserve the best cabinet of my capability. I also don't like the physical appearance of the boxy bass bins.

The speakers themselves, the design is excellent:
Although, my previous speakers were ATC SCM100's, and I feel they're slightly behind on mid-range clarity (very slightly). Overall I prefer the Kairos to the ATC apart from the bass. I'm hoping a 4" mid-range driver will get me closer. I would also like to use the BE tweeter, but the Kairos would require significant cross-over changes and finally, I want less stressed bass.

I think the SB741 + 12" or two 10" actively driven side-firing would be best for my needs and importantly room size.

I would suggest, before you build anything. Look at room acoustics first and try to borrow a subwoofer. Jeff Bagby is an awesome designer and those piccolo's could probably get a bit further with bass reinforcing them and sorting out the room. I'd imagine the piccolos won't be miles behind the Satori designs.

Like you, I also like the idea that it is an open design.
Interesting that you really like the Kairos, even more than $20,000+ ATC SCM100s, while in the post right after yours jtgofish doesn't care much for them at all. Particularly for classical music. So, we need ask whether your comments are based on serious listening to classical music or to some other genre.
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:46 AM   #32
Moondog55 is offline Moondog55  Australia
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I am going sealed with mine on the advice of more experienced members.
If my experience with the SB line of drivers is anything to go by the Satori line must be exceptional but at this time there is no 4" Satori only the 5"/130mm

My music tastes include some classical but more tone poems that symphonic and I also listen to a lot of female voice and jazz mixed with hard rock so my needs are very different to yours as is I think my budget so I can only offer an opinion based on limited knowledge. Also I must advise that I went B-Amp & Tri-Amp many years ago and that effects my own attempts at building speakers and I use cheap PA gear mixed with old 70's amps which do effect the sound.
Please take what I say with a grain of salt because I have definite bias to big speakers
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:57 AM   #33
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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Originally Posted by LineSource View Post
If you want CLEAN-CLEAN-CLEAN sound, you need speakers which control directivity, or room treatment which controls reflections.

These two white papers from Dr. Earl Geddes explain the benefits of controlled directivity speakers in modest size home listening rooms.
http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/directivity.pdf
http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/Philosophy.pdf

-With a standard dome tweeter, take a second look at a sealed 12" + 6" + 1"
---For the 3-3.5cuft required, you can trade extra cabinet height for reduced cabinet depth.

A violin range is 196Hz to 2637Hz.... Typical Satori MW16P-4 crossovers are at 160Hz - 2,000Hz
Thanks for the suggestions about the Geddes papers. I perused them both, but frankly don't have the time right now to study them carefully. Trying to finish reading Toole's book first and that's no small task in itself.

I have no doubt that there will be many compromises in the sound quality achieved in my small room, which is far from ideal. It's small, almost square, and has glass windows completely filling one side. The opposite wall has wooden closet doors, so reflections will be different from the two long sides. Probably couldn't get much worse. The one possible good thing is very thick carpet on the floor.

I don't plan on doing any type of wall or window treatments. Those won't pass the WAF test. And not ready to try horns yet, either.

So while I do appreciate your suggestions and know you are right about many of the issues, I simply am going to have to accept whatever performance result I get from the room at this point. That said, I still want the starting point to be a speaker with the ability to deliver very good sound quality by itself.
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Old 10th September 2019, 07:14 AM   #34
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Speaker subjective preferences are devious. You can't trust even your friends, it is so much in your head. I don't give any attention to loudspeaker reviews on magazines and web sites - I look at specs and measurements (box constuction, driver units, crossover points and topology, response, directivity, distortion, bass extension)

Listening room is always a problem. We can find many recommendations and rules for positioning in the web, many controversial to each other. I like speakers on the long wall quite close to it. The listening spot may not be too close to the back wall, in best scenario there should be lots of open space or dampening/diffusion like a bookshelf. If side walls are close (less than 1m) to speakers, early reflections make interferences, mess the tonality and imaging. Deep wave guides or horns are the only choice then, but they don't evoke so well the late delayed reflections that are good for the ambience that classical orchestral music deserves.

In a mid-size room speakers on the long wall, typical wide-dispersion 3-ways give their best, and so do dipoles. Panel speakers like Martin Logan Montis and dipoles like LX521 or my diy AINOgradient must have that wide room to work best!
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Old 10th September 2019, 07:24 AM   #35
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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Would love to have a room well suited for listening, but in this house that's not possible. Going to have to accept the compromises that come with a small room and just try to optimize the things that I can control, like subwoofer placement.
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Old 10th September 2019, 08:45 AM   #36
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
I am going sealed with mine on the advice of more experienced members.
If my experience with the SB line of drivers is anything to go by the Satori line must be exceptional but at this time there is no 4" Satori only the 5"/130mm
You're right that the MR13P has an overall frame diameter of about 5", but Troels and others refer to it as a 4". It think that's because 4" is close to the actual diameter of the cone itself.
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Old 10th September 2019, 10:50 AM   #37
5th element is offline 5th element  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by classicalfan View Post
Thanks for the suggestions about the Geddes papers. I perused them both, but frankly don't have the time right now to study them carefully. Trying to finish reading Toole's book first and that's no small task in itself.

I have no doubt that there will be many compromises in the sound quality achieved in my small room, which is far from ideal. It's small, almost square, and has glass windows completely filling one side. The opposite wall has wooden closet doors, so reflections will be different from the two long sides. Probably couldn't get much worse. The one possible good thing is very thick carpet on the floor.

I don't plan on doing any type of wall or window treatments. Those won't pass the WAF test. And not ready to try horns yet, either.

So while I do appreciate your suggestions and know you are right about many of the issues, I simply am going to have to accept whatever performance result I get from the room at this point. That said, I still want the starting point to be a speaker with the ability to deliver very good sound quality by itself.
You don't need to go all the way to Geddes speakers to full fill controlled directivity they are like the pinnacle of CD designs. His goal is to give you as large a region of controlled directivity as possible and for that you need wide speakers and large diameter wave guides.

A DXT tweeter from SEAS is still a wave guide loaded tweeter and even with its small size gives a noticeable improvement in the 'focus' aspect of a tweeters sound vs the wider dispersion of naked domes. The DXT doesn't give you anywhere near as much range of controlled directivity but the benefit is still worth having in my opinion.

Then you get the smaller wave guide designs, using 5-6" wave guides. The Visaton WG 148 R and Monacor WG300 for example. Very room friendly and give you a considerable amount more of the good stuff vs what a DXT will do and a huge improvement over a naked dome.

You've also got coaxial drivers that, if well designed, do a similar thing. The tweeter using the cone of the coax as a wave guide and controlling the directivity as a result. KEF drivers are a great example of this as is the C18EN/MR18REX from SEAS. The coax drivers also coming with the added benefit of superb vertical and horizontal off axis performance.

I personally would never go back to naked domes for serious listening, or even casual listening if it can be helped.

Ignoring the lack of wave guides I don't like either of the Troels designs posted here. As usual he's used far too high of an xover point for absolutely optimal performance. If you want to go with Troels you could look into his 8008HMQ designs. Sensitivity and controlled directivity is bang on for realistic classical reproduction. Failing that seek other other designs using wave guides and at least incorporate them into your set of design choices. But if you have typically been let down by naked dome tweeter designs for giving you the presentation that you desire perhaps it is time to actually go for something different.
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Old 10th September 2019, 11:37 AM   #38
Moondog55 is offline Moondog55  Australia
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Originally Posted by classicalfan View Post
You're right that the MR13P has an overall frame diameter of about 5", but Troels and others refer to it as a 4". It think that's because 4" is close to the actual diameter of the cone itself.
Fair enough, by that criteria my Vifa M11 is an 87mm driver as is the similar MCA12RC using 50% of the surround as part of the radiating area.
Nominal driver size does vary.
Looking forward to your build and your listening impressions
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Old 10th September 2019, 02:17 PM   #39
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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SBA 741 vs. SBA 761 for Classical Music
Yep, what 5th Element said. Because you can't control the room, you'll need to take more care controlling the speakers. In the right space, even crappy speakers can sound OK (touring with a PA will quickly teach you that) but a poor room needs speakers that don't splash all over the place.

Thick carpet on the floor is good. If you can sneak some thick curtains onto those windows, all the better.
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:28 PM   #40
sebbyp is online now sebbyp  United Kingdom
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Originally Posted by classicalfan View Post
Interesting that you really like the Kairos, even more than $20,000+ ATC SCM100s, while in the post right after yours jtgofish doesn't care much for them at all. Particularly for classical music. So, we need ask whether your comments are based on serious listening to classical music or to some other genre.
Good point. I actually forgot to mention in my last post.

I listen to classical music and attend live classical music events but have a wide range of listening tastes. So I would take my comments with a pinch of salt.

I would also reiterate Juhazi. We all hear and want to hear different things. So subjective comments are hearsay really. Often you are also not aware of upstream components, the room etc - which can all have a substantial impact on someone's particular experience. Therefore I often look much closer at the objective capabilities and my room.

I appreciate the WAF of room treatment, but it can be done very nicely. Unfortunately, mine certainly isn't at the moment... So worth a look, to see if anything would be acceptable or sneak it into a "room redecoration" so everyone wins as its way more significant then changing speakers in my opinion.
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