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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

SBA 741 vs. SBA 761 for Classical Music
SBA 741 vs. SBA 761 for Classical Music
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:21 AM   #21
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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LineSource,

Thanks for the suggestion about the Open Source Tower XL, but at 150 liters I'm afraid it is much too large for my room. It would overpower the room visually, if not sonically, and would never pass the WAF test.
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:39 AM   #22
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sebbyp View Post
I think what people are trying to say, IMO theyre absolutely right, for anything like classical music (or any music) you need the lower octave. You stand to gain a lot by having proper bass since your coming from full range and a small two-way. Scale and mid-range quality of music will be improved.

I have kairos (three way) with 1x 10 driver each side and craving more bass. Im looking to build an SB 741, with a different approach to bass up to 200hz - more surface area.

Id suggest the 741, improved midrange clarity not just due to driver size, also decreased mass to move, narrower baffle and bass is picked up by a dedicated driver. It also allows you to build an integrated active sub design later.

For the zing, I have found isolation and room acoustics can support transient response and micro details. I use sorbothane to reduce vibrations to the ground and Id suggest acoustic panels for atleast the first reflection zones which made a significant impact to the zing effect.
I'm curious what you are looking for in another build that the Kairos 3-way does not give you now. It gets excellent reviews and is one of the alternatives that I have been looking at for my next build.

I've moved over my interest to the new Troels SBA 741 and 941 designs primarily due to the 4" midrange they incorporate. But I haven't totally discounted the Kairos if there is a compelling reason for choosing it. I'm very happy with Jeff Bagby's Piccolo within the limits of its capabilities. I believe he is an excellent designer and trust his work.
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Old 9th September 2019, 08:28 AM   #23
a3cervo is offline a3cervo  Philippines
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The SBA-761 utilizes the bigger (6.5in) and highly regarded mids driver MW16P. HifiCompass even tout is as one of his favorite drivers soundwise here:
Some speaker driver measurements...

Having built Troels' ScanSpeak 3-way Discovery classic, there are times I wonder; "would these sound even better with bigger mid drivers?". If you plan to incorporate active subs later, the SBA-761 might give you that extra oomph in the mids with it combining the MW16P and MW19P cone diameters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by classicalfan View Post
Yes. This is exactly the direction I've been heading as well. The critical key is the 4" midrange, which most of the suggestions so far have not incorporated. They seem more concerned with the low end extension of the woofer than with the midrange. I'm going with Troels direction to use a 4" midrange unless I find a reason to change.

Thanks for bringing up the SEAS-3-Way-Classic-mkII. I had looked at it briefly, but had not continued since it's a proprietary design while the newer SBA 741 and SBA 761 are open with all crossover values publicly specified .

However, the use of the MCA 12RC in the mkII makes it certainly a possibility. Especially with the comment about very fast response to transient attacks. That might be the key to giving me the "kzing" that I'm looking for.

Not sure how the MCA 12RC compares to the Satori MR13P-8 used in the SBA 741 and 941 that he calls magnificent in the write up of the later. But certainly worth a look.

Last edited by a3cervo; 9th September 2019 at 08:40 AM.
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Old 9th September 2019, 08:39 AM   #24
Moondog55 is offline Moondog55  Australia
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Yes it is the small 3-Way that uses the 4" midrange
SBAcoustics-3WC
I'd like to hear those but do not know of anybody who has built them. Talking to others here my clone will be a sealed box plus a dedicated subwoofer as I too like deep and accurate bass
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Old 9th September 2019, 11:23 AM   #25
sebbyp is offline sebbyp  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classicalfan View Post
I'm curious what you are looking for in another build that the Kairos 3-way does not give you now. It gets excellent reviews and is one of the alternatives that I have been looking at for my next build.

I've moved over my interest to the new Troels SBA 741 and 941 designs primarily due to the 4" midrange they incorporate. But I haven't totally discounted the Kairos if there is a compelling reason for choosing it. I'm very happy with Jeff Bagby's Piccolo within the limits of its capabilities. I believe he is an excellent designer and trust his work.
I learnt some lessons in my implementation. I built the Kairos with translam cabinets and made some mistakes. I'm looking at the best type of cabinets and may go constrained-layer-damping, as I feel the drivers and design deserve the best cabinet of my capability. I also don't like the physical appearance of the boxy bass bins.

The speakers themselves, the design is excellent:
Although, my previous speakers were ATC SCM100's, and I feel they're slightly behind on mid-range clarity (very slightly). Overall I prefer the Kairos to the ATC apart from the bass. I'm hoping a 4" mid-range driver will get me closer. I would also like to use the BE tweeter, but the Kairos would require significant cross-over changes and finally, I want less stressed bass.

I think the SB741 + 12" or two 10" actively driven side-firing would be best for my needs and importantly room size.

I would suggest, before you build anything. Look at room acoustics first and try to borrow a subwoofer. Jeff Bagby is an awesome designer and those piccolo's could probably get a bit further with bass reinforcing them and sorting out the room. I'd imagine the piccolos won't be miles behind the Satori designs.

Like you, I also like the idea that it is an open design.
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Old 9th September 2019, 02:01 PM   #26
jtgofish is offline jtgofish
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I have owned a great many speakers and am yet to work out what makes a good classical music speaker.I have the Kairos [both 2 and 3 way version] and do not think it is that good on classical.My Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor Ms were a lot better [especially for string tone].Some old B&W DM2s transmission lines were nearly very good as were some JBL Studio 590s and of course for orchestral music Bose 901s when set up properly can sound fantastic if a bit coloured and lacking in refinement.Then my Yamaha NS75Ts are superb on piano and the best speakers I have owned for that instrument.And yet all these speakers would appear to have nothing in common.So really speculating on what might sound good based on components or configuration is probably a waste of time.
If you want the best just buy a pair of Yamaha NS 5000s.The most real and convincing speakers I have ever heard for voice and acoustic instruments.
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Old 9th September 2019, 05:03 PM   #27
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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If you want CLEAN-CLEAN-CLEAN sound, you need speakers which control directivity, or room treatment which controls reflections.

These two white papers from Dr. Earl Geddes explain the benefits of controlled directivity speakers in modest size home listening rooms.
http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/directivity.pdf
http://www.gedlee.com/Papers/Philosophy.pdf

-With a standard dome tweeter, take a second look at a sealed 12" + 6" + 1"
---For the 3-3.5cuft required, you can trade extra cabinet height for reduced cabinet depth.

A violin range is 196Hz to 2637Hz.... Typical Satori MW16P-4 crossovers are at 160Hz - 2,000Hz
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Old 9th September 2019, 05:24 PM   #28
Pano is offline Pano  United States
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SBA 741 vs. SBA 761 for Classical Music
While I can't answer the original question of which to choose, the 741 or the 761, I can say that I've never heard "small" speakers that do justice to classical music. Well once - at a show in Vegas I head a pair of slim towers that were marvelous on orchestral music.

Thus my love for large speakers, as classical makes up most of my listening. But not everyone has room for large speakers, either planar, open baffle or horn. So you use what you can fit on your listening space. I was happiest when I had a large space and large speakers. I listened to much more opera then. Small spaces and small speakers can do chamber music well, but nothing of a grander scale.

Have you considered, and do you have room for anything more large scale?
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Old 9th September 2019, 05:29 PM   #29
sebbyp is offline sebbyp  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jtgofish View Post
I have owned a great many speakers and am yet to work out what makes a good classical music speaker.I have the Kairos [both 2 and 3 way version] and do not think it is that good on classical.My Sonus Faber Cremona Auditor Ms were a lot better [especially for string tone].Some old B&W DM2s transmission lines were nearly very good as were some JBL Studio 590s and of course for orchestral music Bose 901s when set up properly can sound fantastic if a bit coloured and lacking in refinement.Then my Yamaha NS75Ts are superb on piano and the best speakers I have owned for that instrument.And yet all these speakers would appear to have nothing in common.So really speculating on what might sound good based on components or configuration is probably a waste of time.
If you want the best just buy a pair of Yamaha NS 5000s.The most real and convincing speakers I have ever heard for voice and acoustic instruments.
This is interesting feedback and shows a lot of this is to do with preference. I am only familiar with the Sonus Faber's (not the other speakers) and I prefer a more linear/cleaner mid-bass which is perceived as a thinner sound.

The NS-5000's do look awesome too!

I would really iterate, sort out room reflections and borrow a sub
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Old 10th September 2019, 05:02 AM   #30
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
Yes it is the small 3-Way that uses the 4" midrange
SBAcoustics-3WC
I'd like to hear those but do not know of anybody who has built them. Talking to others here my clone will be a sealed box plus a dedicated subwoofer as I too like deep and accurate bass
The SBAcoustics-3WC uses the SB line of drivers, whereas I want to go with Satori line. Not sure they are worth the extra money, but I'm willing to take that gamble. Don't want to do this twice.

I like the idea of going sealed, particularly since I plan to have separate subs. I'm assuming that I can seal the cabinet for the SBA 741 without any changes to the crossover. What do you think?
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