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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

SBA 741 vs. SBA 761 for Classical Music
SBA 741 vs. SBA 761 for Classical Music
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Old 8th September 2019, 09:32 PM   #11
Dave Bullet is offline Dave Bullet  New Zealand
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I have 10" sealed bass drivers and they need assistance in my room from a subwoofer - especially on some full orchestra pieces.

Take a look at:
Tech Stuff - Frequency Ranges

There are quite a few instruments below 50Hz as their lowest fundamental.

I've never been happy relying on room gain to make up the bottom end of a speaker. I'm a believer you need a large cone area (>= 12") for modest listening rooms (mine being 7m * 5.5m * pitched 4m ceiling) to get adequate non-stressed bass.

Hence my desire for a 12" 3 way TMW speaker.
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Old 8th September 2019, 11:14 PM   #12
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by classicalfan View Post
One of my primarily objectives is to hear a very sharp “kzing” and not a dull mushy “zuhm” sound from a strong sudden attack by 30 violins.

“kzing” rather than “zuhm” and tears from Brahms Violin Concerto.
CONTROLLED DIRECTIVITY
The controlled directivity from a horn loaded tweeter will provide both the dynamics and the "crisp direct sound" you seek. A standard dome tweeter spreads the high frequencies around the room, generating reflections which smear the sound as they bounce off the walls and ceiling/floor. "zzzzuhm" instead of "Kzing"
=======

"Open Source Tower XL" Goals : amp friendly (high efficiency) and flattish impedance curve of 8 ohms, low bass extension of 35Hz within -3db and cabinet volume will be up to 150 liter. Drivers costs will be maximum of 1000$ for the pair ( excluding crossover parts and cabinet)."

I believe the goals in this open 3-way Focal driver design thread will satisfy your requirements... You just have to get a little horny to get controlled directivity. There are other 3-way horn designs with great reviews you can study.

Open Source "Tower XL"

1" compression driver and tweeter horn
8" midrange
15" ported woofer
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:01 AM   #13
sebbyp is offline sebbyp  United Kingdom
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I think what people are trying to say, IMO they’re absolutely right, for anything like classical music (or any music) you need the lower octave. You stand to gain a lot by having proper bass since your coming from full range and a small two-way. Scale and mid-range quality of music will be improved.

I have kairos (three way) with 1x 10” driver each side and craving more bass. I’m looking to build an SB 741, with a different approach to bass up to 200hz - more surface area.

I’d suggest the 741, improved midrange clarity not just due to driver size, also decreased mass to move, narrower baffle and bass is picked up by a dedicated driver. It also allows you to build an integrated active sub design later.

For the zing, I have found isolation and room acoustics can support transient response and micro details. I use sorbothane to reduce vibrations to the ground and I’d suggest acoustic panels for atleast the first reflection zones which made a significant impact to the zing effect.
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Old 9th September 2019, 03:11 AM   #14
knifeinthesink is offline knifeinthesink  Canada
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The rest of the system is important too. It takes a lot to resolve the details, timbres, spatial cues, etc to really deliver the impact of a good orchestra.

The most satisfying orchestra reproduction I’ve heard was on planar speakers. Perhaps open baffle would work for you.
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Old 9th September 2019, 03:20 AM   #15
knifeinthesink is offline knifeinthesink  Canada
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Heres a rabbit hole for you: LX521 Description

No first hand experience but I’d be willing to bet there aren’t many speakers that could top these for classical. I remember someone who’s opinions people listen to on one of the diy forums calling these some of the great speakers of our time. Wish I could remember where I read that.
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Old 9th September 2019, 04:47 AM   #16
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Bullet View Post
Have you emailed Troels? He would be best placed to answer. I'm sure he'd like to help you choose which of his designs might give you want you are after considering he also appreciates classical.
I've been thinking about asking Troels as well. Not sure if I'll get an answer, but it's certainly worth a try.
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Old 9th September 2019, 04:53 AM   #17
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
classicalfan, did you notice that Troels shows a bass module designed for the 741?

A good hifi speaker will never sound zuhm,unless it is on the recording, no matter how low the speaker can go. The realism of classical recordings gets much better if the speaker can easily go to 30Hz, without blowing it through the reflex pipe. I was never happy with 2-way plus subwoofer, but a 3-way with capable bass made feel like I was at concert! I was surprised how important it is and it doesn't fight with good treble.

Commercial speakers that can go low without a subwoofer are rare, but the floorstanding B&W speakers do that. They have wobbly treble with sharp highs, but go to a hifi shop and listen to the bass!

You don't have to do like Linesource and I say, but a single 7" tuned around 38Hz is not hifi to us. Be warned!
Yes, I agree with this. Should have mentioned before that I plan to later add an active subwoofer to the system. My initial concern is with the midrange and that's what I'm trying to nail down first.
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Old 9th September 2019, 05:39 AM   #18
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Bullet View Post
I have 10" sealed bass drivers and they need assistance in my room from a subwoofer - especially on some full orchestra pieces.

Take a look at:
Tech Stuff - Frequency Ranges

There are quite a few instruments below 50Hz as their lowest fundamental.

I've never been happy relying on room gain to make up the bottom end of a speaker. I'm a believer you need a large cone area (>= 12") for modest listening rooms (mine being 7m * 5.5m * pitched 4m ceiling) to get adequate non-stressed bass.

Hence my desire for a 12" 3 way TMW speaker.
No argument about the need for a subwoofer and my plan is to add one or two of them in separate cabinets. But I really want the basic TMW cabinet width to be no more than 12". A little less would be better.

Troels SBA 941 is still another possibility that I didn't discuss before, because it's not an open design like the newer 741 and 761.
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Old 9th September 2019, 06:06 AM   #19
Moondog55 is offline Moondog55  Australia
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I've been reading Troels pages a lot lately while thinking about my next 3-Way project. Read what he says about the fast attack of a good 4" midrange and imagine his smaller 3-Way projects with a really good 12" bass driver
" The MCA12 is a darling. What you immediately recognise from this construction is the unusual wide dispersion of the midrange. If you're used to listening to 2-ways with a 6-7" midbass, the sound from the 3W Classic will be very much different. Besides the midrange dispersion, the MCA12 is fast as lightning and you will get a transients attack not possible from 15 grams 6" cones. The 4" middriver may be one of the clues to "an easy to listen to" speaker"
SEAS-3-Way-Classic
SEAS-3-Way-Classic-mkII
Of all the old school Vifa drivers in my stash I prefer the M11-MH, it is very similar to the MCA 12RC, so much so that I could probably use the Troels design with my existing Vifa drivers
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Old 9th September 2019, 07:10 AM   #20
classicalfan is offline classicalfan  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
I've been reading Troels pages a lot lately while thinking about my next 3-Way project. Read what he says about the fast attack of a good 4" midrange and imagine his smaller 3-Way projects with a really good 12" bass driver
" The MCA12 is a darling. What you immediately recognise from this construction is the unusual wide dispersion of the midrange. If you're used to listening to 2-ways with a 6-7" midbass, the sound from the 3W Classic will be very much different. Besides the midrange dispersion, the MCA12 is fast as lightning and you will get a transients attack not possible from 15 grams 6" cones. The 4" middriver may be one of the clues to "an easy to listen to" speaker"
SEAS-3-Way-Classic
SEAS-3-Way-Classic-mkII
Of all the old school Vifa drivers in my stash I prefer the M11-MH, it is very similar to the MCA 12RC, so much so that I could probably use the Troels design with my existing Vifa drivers
Yes. This is exactly the direction I've been heading as well. The critical key is the 4" midrange, which most of the suggestions so far have not incorporated. They seem more concerned with the low end extension of the woofer than with the midrange. I'm going with Troels direction to use a 4" midrange unless I find a reason to change.

Thanks for bringing up the SEAS-3-Way-Classic-mkII. I had looked at it briefly, but had not continued since it's a proprietary design while the newer SBA 741 and SBA 761 are open with all crossover values publicly specified .

However, the use of the MCA 12RC in the mkII makes it certainly a possibility. Especially with the comment about very fast response to transient attacks. That might be the key to giving me the "kzing" that I'm looking for.

Not sure how the MCA 12RC compares to the Satori MR13P-8 used in the SBA 741 and 941 that he calls magnificent in the write up of the later. But certainly worth a look.
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