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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Choosing the right 5" midrange
Choosing the right 5" midrange
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Old 13th September 2019, 09:54 AM   #81
andy19191 is offline andy19191  Europe
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Originally Posted by MIJK View Post
So, Andy, moondog and others, is the configuration mostly used with a 5" midrange mated to 2 x 8" drivers a 4 ohm midrange and 8 ohm woofers? What more, if any benefits does it give?
This is the dominant arrangement for good examples of your configuration. The reason for this is because it essentially optimises the many trade-offs if the objective is a practical high fidelity speaker for the home. Now some designers will have more specialised objectives which will change the trade-offs. For example an 8 ohm rather than a 4 ohm load. The resulting 8 ohm design will likely be a poorer speaker judged by the lesser constraints which admit 4 ohm designs but if 8 ohms is a requirement then this is irrelevant.

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I have near zero interest in high end commercial speakers as they are way above what I can afford now and coulf anytime in my life, so I have no idea on what kind of brands or models to look at.. And with the limited information provided by these producers, i don't see what I might benefit from spending time googling them and selecting them and then further Google for more information about them.
Could you help me by writing what I'm supposed to look at, in more detail maybe, so I could Google those terms and maybe learn in a faster manner?

Im not asking you to do the work for me, but maybe help me a bit in the right direction. For someone not educated in electronics and without serious experience in speaker/diyaudio building, it sure can feel overwhelming at times.

The feeling I most often get at the end of another day trying to learn these things are severe confusion.
This is because you have not mastered the basics of how to design a speaker with the configuration you have chosen. I have suggested looking at the designs from those that do know how to design such speakers and then sitting down with some speaker design software with a first guess and swapping and changing things in order to teach yourself the trade-offs. The latter is pretty much unavoidable if you want to design your own speaker. It is possible to design your own speaker without looking at how experienced people have done it previously but it would be odd and the result is likely to be less than it could have been. A large chunk of the economy in the developing (now developed in many cases) was built by doing largely this.

Another option would be to read a good book or good online texts on the subject but the good is the tricky part. Most of what is online is not good. I learnt about speaker DIY in the 70s and then for the next few decades had no interest in the subject but the technical side of sound and engineering was a part of the day job. I am not well informed about current good sources on the basics of speaker DIY but others on the forum will be.
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Old 13th September 2019, 02:21 PM   #82
mbrennwa is offline mbrennwa  Switzerland
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Choosing the right 5" midrange
The design of a speaker system should not start with choosing the drivers.

You first need to define and put down the targets that you want to achieve. Size, efficiency, bass extension, "amplifier friendliness", application (home, outdoor, PA, mobile, etc.), difficulty of the build, financial constraints, and other things that may be specific to your situation. Once you know these, you can start thinking about how to implement things. Choosing the right drivers is part of this second step.

Starting with choosing the drivers is backwards and will not be an efficient approach to implement what you want. You'll just keep on bumping into things you don't want, and which you haven't put down in your definition of your targets.

It's not easy, I know. You are not the first one who gets bitten by attempting the backwards approach. Take a look at the Open Source Monkey Coffin thread. That was quite a process...
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Old 13th September 2019, 03:15 PM   #83
Zvu is offline Zvu  Serbia
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^All of that is defined from the very beginning of the thread. 1m tall, 25-35cm width (depending on woofers), depth depending on woofers, 2x8"/5"/1" configuration, 30-35Hz lower end, 100€ per midrange or less, 400/3000Hz crossover points (not fixed depending on drivers), 8 ohm, highest sensitivity achievable, for his room. It's all there.
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Last edited by Zvu; 13th September 2019 at 03:23 PM.
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Old 14th September 2019, 12:33 AM   #84
Moondog55 is offline Moondog55  Australia
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Personally I think almost any well regarded midrange would be usable.
All that is needed is for the driver to be reasonable flat for an octave either side of the crossover point and for the efficiency to be with-in a couple of dB of the woofers.
I consider the midrange the most important driver when listening and I would argue that if you listen to the driver in its own without a crossover and it sounds good then it will work as a midrange. Put it in a small box, drive it hard and listen.
Personally I have always liked using .5 woofer but these days I find it cheaper to add a small powered subwoofer as cost is often a deciding factor for me and the price of good quality and low DCR inductors of high values can exceed the cost of that small powered sub.
On a personal preference note I would use a 4" mid rather than a 5" but my experience with dedicated 5" mids has been restricted to the venerable Vifa P-13 or very cheap generic drivers.
Something else also, and possible irrelevant as Vifa no longer exist; but Vifa do mention that the old P-11 / M-11 drivers were suitable for use the first order XOs and I found this has made those particular drivers easy to work with and can handle quite high power levels when used with second order XOs as per the Vifa recommendations. So ask around and see if any of the drivers mentioned so far will work with simple first order XOs
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Old 14th September 2019, 11:28 AM   #85
MIJK is offline MIJK  Sweden
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Hi guys,

I just wanted to say thank you all for your contributions! Nice to see that the will to help a newcomer is so big, and I do learn from you.

I'm reading everything that's posted here, but aren't posting at the moment because I need to understand what's been posted already before moving on. Hopefully I'm able to do some simulations later on today, hopefully it will learn me something more.
I'm also checking what's available on the market when it comes to 8" drivers.

The Wavecor drivers are interesting for sure, and the build quality on them seems really good. I would like to see one in real life. I had somewhat of a thought of using different brands for the different drivers to maybe get a feel for the quality in real life, but that's just a wish that's has nothing in it for the design of the speaker. Besides, if I stick to Scandinavian manufacturers Im going to make a Scandinavian threesome. Stupid, yeah, funny, yes

I also came across the WF132TU Wavecor driver.
It's said to be designed for car audio applications, but the Qts and so on are reasonably normal.

I also looked up the Peerless Hds drivers on Peerless homepage, as I wanted to see what HDS drivers if any are still in production, and there are plenty that's seems to be available and in production.

There are some gem's in there I think, the 5,25" HDS 830991 in particular and also its brothers in the same size with different cone materials, and in the 4" size the polypropylene 830870.

I own 8 pcs of the 830875 6,5" nomex drivers that are going into the Elsinore speakers, and the performance and quality for the price, seems really hard to beat. I would like to try different drivers out, but maybe the cheap HDS is an easy reserve exit?

But they aren't available in 4 ohm, it seems.
I really can't see why Peerless put some HDS drivers put of production. They seem to have quite a nice concept going there, performance wise, for the price.
Likewise with the NE series, also out of production. Someone here know why?
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Old 14th September 2019, 12:23 PM   #86
Zvu is offline Zvu  Serbia
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Sticking to Scandinavian manufacturers will limit you to Seas and Scan Speak. All others are on different continent.

I wouldn't pay any atention about where something is built and whose name is on the brand if performance is there. If you allow that much subjectivity to set in, performance will definitely suffer.
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Old 14th September 2019, 01:09 PM   #87
mondogenerator is online now mondogenerator  England
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No a 5", but another Monacor 4" mid, MSH 115.

This is 8 ohm midrange, with better sensitivity and flatter looking response than the MSH116/4.

I was stuck choosing between this model and other Fiatal and Monacor Mids.
I am certainly very happy with the choice of the Monacor MSH 115.
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Old 15th September 2019, 11:46 AM   #88
MIJK is offline MIJK  Sweden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvu View Post
Sticking to Scandinavian manufacturers will limit you to Seas and Scan Speak. All others are on different continent.

I wouldn't pay any atention about where something is built and whose name is on the brand if performance is there. If you allow that much subjectivity to set in, performance will definitely suffer.
Yes, brand and place of production is of no interest unless it has impairments on the quality of the sound reproduced.

But, aren't at least wavecor and peerless also designed in Denmark? A least there are Danish engineers in the design team?

Mondo and others, there are many that recommend Monacor drivers. I don't think I'm going in that direction, but we'll see. I can't put my finger on it, but it is something that makes me inclined to not going with Monacor.
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Old 15th September 2019, 12:13 PM   #89
Zvu is offline Zvu  Serbia
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Originally Posted by MIJK View Post
Yes, brand and place of production is of no interest unless it has impairments on the quality of the sound reproduced.

But, aren't at least wavecor and peerless also designed in Denmark? A least there are Danish engineers in the design team?
Can i ask again, why would someones nationality in any design team be of importance for product performance ?

For Wavecore it could be (quite possible that designers are Danish) but Peerless hardly. Out of 1.4 bilion Chinese people you really think that they need to hire Danes to design their loudspeakers ? When Tymphany bought Vifa, Perless and Scan Speak, they've bought not just brands (secondary thing imo) but knowledge aquired through few decades of their existence. There are lots of geniuses in China so i guess there are plenty of those that can pick up where the Danes stopped at the time of aquisition.
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Last edited by Zvu; 15th September 2019 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 15th September 2019, 01:43 PM   #90
pliedtka is offline pliedtka  Canada
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If it's going to be a 3way in TMWW configuration then, then the 8" would most likely be parallel giving it 4ohms in LP section. Now if you add 4ohm midrange the impedance will drop below 3ohm, possibly into 2 ohm range in the midrange making it troublesome for many but the best amps to drive. Other thing to consider the the midrange level will be boosted by 1dB or more by the filter section, so really to match the low pass section you will have to attenuate the mid and tweeter. Unless you go multi amp and run the woofers from separate amp where you can match, bring up the levels things are very complicated with 4ohm mid. For a this build I would go DSP because it gives flexibility passive crossovers don't allow (EQ, time alignment, different slope order) and might sometimes cost less if the passive x-o turns very complicated.
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