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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Choosing the right 5" midrange
Choosing the right 5" midrange
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Old 11th September 2019, 07:03 PM   #61
Dave Bullet is offline Dave Bullet  New Zealand
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A Seas L26RFX/P (10") will do 43Hz in 60L sealed. Was tested against the Daytons at the time (talking 12 years ago) and it outperformed on HD.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:00 AM   #62
MIJK is offline MIJK  Sweden
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zvu View Post
None of them gets to around F3<=45Hz anechoic. I'm not inclined on making loudspeakers that will be room specific, so while some of these woofers would work in some rooms, in other (larger) it wouldn't or would be very different performance. Thanks.



Two Scans will not work their best in closed cabinet nor will they get low enough. I'm guessing you wanted to write SB34NRX75-6 ? It's a good one and will be very good woofer in a closed volume of around 70 liters - if TS parameters from SBacoustics is to be trusted.

I know about the Beyma 12BR70 but in Beyma they've made a mess with revisions and model naming. There are 3 variants of 12BR70 and only one will work in closed cabinet of around 100 liters (if i remember correctly from when i simulated its response, it was a long time ago) so it's hit and miss with it.




Thread hijacking wasn't my intention since i thought you will need a woofer or two soon or a later, so you too will benefit from slight diverge from subject. If you are bothered that much by these few posts, please do contact the moderators and i'm sure they will separate it to a different thread.

I see that my post could come of as being rude, but it wasn't my intention, just me kind of trying to keep the thread somewhat easy to interpret, as too many subjects at the same time is confusing for me.
And yeah, you are right I'm going to have to get tips and ideas on 8' driver further on too.
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Old 12th September 2019, 10:31 AM   #63
MIJK is offline MIJK  Sweden
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Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
Did he propose 2x 4 ohm series? I know he proposed 8 ohm mid..

I recommended the 2x 8 ohms in parallel (and in my statement above: parallel) ..and a 4 ohm midrange with impedance compensation.

So then:

2x 4 ohms in series effectively give no net gain (or loss). (Voltage loss of -3db and acoustic gain of +3db = 0.)
Hmm, I see that I've once again have gotten this series/parallel connection possibilities somewhat wrong.

My idea was to use the ~ 6dB gain parallell wiring give to one's benefit.

But, I still don't know if it is a good idea to use the sensitivity, and the above gain from parallel wiring to compensate for the baffle step?
I've been googling about it and have come across it in one or two older threads, but no mention if it is a good idea or not, and what kind of negatives it could bring to the table, and possible positives.

So, Andy, moondog and others, is the configuration mostly used with a 5" midrange mated to 2 x 8" drivers a 4 ohm midrange and 8 ohm woofers? What more, if any benefits does it give?

Almost all drivers I've been looking at are available in 4 ohm, some of them only in 4 ohm and others only in 8 ohm. It doesn't really narrow down the possibilities that much, other than the Audax is out of the game.

Andy and others again,

I have near zero interest in high end commercial speakers as they are way above what I can afford now and coulf anytime in my life, so I have no idea on what kind of brands or models to look at.. And with the limited information provided by these producers, i don't see what I might benefit from spending time googling them and selecting them and then further Google for more information about them.
Could you help me by writing what I'm supposed to look at, in more detail maybe, so I could Google those terms and maybe learn in a faster manner?

Im not asking you to do the work for me, but maybe help me a bit in the right direction. For someone not educated in electronics and without serious experience in speaker/diyaudio building, it sure can feel overwhelming at times.

The feeling I most often get at the end of another day trying to learn these things are severe confusion.
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Old 12th September 2019, 11:14 AM   #64
MIJK is offline MIJK  Sweden
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Originally Posted by Moondog55 View Post
If by usable you mean -3dB at 30Hz it is a big ask of 8" drivers, even a pair of them. Some of the older Vifa woofers I have will do it but only with massive and steep cut offs at 25Hz and with big vents
Does your amplifier set-up have such subsonic protection built in?
I must have missed the information but I would [ and do] use a pair or triplet of subwoofers for the last bass octave.
My 11YO grand daughter has good ears and thinks the last cheap build was "excellent" and that was the cheap Peerless 830656 and it can play plenty loud and clean up to its thermal limit

I mean something like - 6dB at around 30hz. 35hz would probably OK too. But usable 30hz is what I'm aiming for.

Volume usable for the woofers is preferably maximum 75-80L but up to 100L is okay if the benefits are substantial.

This is in room response, not anechoic. When it comes to designing subwoofers and woofers I'm inclined to believe in the school of designing with the room in mind.

I do have sealed subwoofers being built as we speak, so I will have that possibility, but the speakers should be built for stand alone use and as such, will be built and designed for stand alone use.

I have one wild idea of trying to design the speaker so that ported and sealed use would be possible, and as such, easy to convert to use with subwoofers. This is an idea only, and I can't see how one would implement this nicely and aestheticly into a speaker with the port on the baffle.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Charles Darwin View Post
This is the official PHL retailer for Europe:

PHL Audio speakers : Made in France !
PHL is a interesting company that produces some nice drivers. I read somewhere that the designer of the Aerogel Audax drivers went to work at PHL later on?
If that is true, which of the Phl drivers are the most like the Aerogel drivers in design and build? I couldn't see any Aerogel drivers on PHL's site when I checked it, maybe it is an Audax patent, or maybe the designer found something else or some else way of designing drivers that are superior?

The reason I were, and are, somewhat hooked on the Aerogel is the comments about it sounding so lifelike and dynamic compared to other drivers.
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Old 12th September 2019, 12:09 PM   #65
Zvu is offline Zvu  Serbia
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Most mids will be much more sensitive than woofers you will use - even if you use 2 woofers per cabinet.

I am leaning towards 2x8" 8ohm woofers in parallel. This is important for me because i am:

1)working with passive crossovers so the values of components when crossing over low are still achievable and the prices are normal

2)working with passive crossovers so no possibility for raising lower frequencies to compensate for baffle step loss

In my opinion, you first must know what woofers and midrange you will be using. When you know that, you can choose the midrange impedance per your need.

Let me give you an example using 5" midrange that is 8 ohm and 91dB at 2,83V/1m in a cabinet that is 22cm wide. If you would use Scan Speak 22W8534 (an 8 ohm 88dB at 2.83V/1m distance) then 2 x 22W8534 in parallel would give you +6dB output at 2,83V/1m and in regard to that midrange: +3dB for doubling the cone surface and +3dB on lowering the impedance. In a loudspeaker cabinet that is 22cm wide, -6dB point (because of Baffle Step effect) will be somewhere between 200-250Hz. So you are ending up with real 88dB at 2.83V/1m in that region. If you make crossover point between the woofers and midrange at say 200-400Hz (as it should be done to get flat anechoic response down to 200Hz) you will have to attenuate the midrange by only 3dB (depending on crossover points and acoustic slopes of woofers and tweeter, more than 3dB attenuation may be needed).

If you know where you want your crossover points to be, that will lead you to cabinet width and further to woofer size and i think that is the place search should start. Woofers used will determine the highest achievable sensitivity of the finished loudspeaker. When you know what woofers you will use then you know the sensitivity at 2.83V/1m of your loudspeaker. Now you can choose your midrange and it will rarely demand a 4 ohm value (unless it is pretty small in diameter that 5" is most certainly not). My point is that you should bother yourself with nominal impedance of a midrange only when you know what woofers you will be using and boundary reinforcement due to woofers proximity to the floor.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Bullet View Post
A Seas L26RFX/P (10") will do 43Hz in 60L sealed. Was tested against the Daytons at the time (talking 12 years ago) and it outperformed on HD.
That one has been hiding from me in plain sight. Thanks for pointing me to it.
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Last edited by Zvu; 12th September 2019 at 12:34 PM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 07:57 PM   #66
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Originally Posted by Zvu View Post
That one has been hiding from me in plain sight. Thanks for pointing me to it.
It should stay hidden given the price and performance at higher spl:

SEAS L26RFX/P (Woofer 10", 8 Ohm, 300 Wmax)
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:07 PM   #67
Zvu is offline Zvu  Serbia
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And not to be totally off topic, i'd suggest a midrange for you. Wavecor WF146WA01 or 02 - the difference is only in impedance, not performance in any other way.

WF146WA01_02

Wavecor WF146WA01.jpg

It looks like a well balanced driver. Distortion figures are not the greatest in the world but are ahead of most mentioned here that cost more, price is well within your ballpark, size is right, paper cone, you can cross as low as you want. Steel chassis - but i'll always take that look and good performance over a great craftsmanship and lousy performance. I'm not sure it will be much better than this for budget that high.

Other, in my opinion better, option would be ZA14W08 but, as name suggests, it is available only in an 8 ohm version and it is about 86dB at 2.83V/1m. If it would work in your design, i'd take that. If higher sensitivity is needed, then 4 ohm version of mentioned Wavecor will do just fine.


Zaph Audio ZA14W08 | HiFiCompass
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Last edited by Zvu; 12th September 2019 at 08:17 PM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:10 PM   #68
Zvu is offline Zvu  Serbia
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Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
It should stay hidden given the price and performance at higher spl:

SEAS L26RFX/P (Woofer 10", 8 Ohm, 300 Wmax)
I don't actually believe in distortion figures from Dibirama, but it is something that would be worth investigating.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:13 PM   #69
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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-well it's THD, so it's a composite of 2nd and 3rd. What should be noted though is the "jump" in distortion with higher input levels - and you almost always have a "jump" with higher order distortion at some point that corresponds with what 2nd and 3rd are doing.

The driver is otherwise performing well at lower levels for a midbass solution. (..though not incredibly so given its cost.)

Ironically I'd say that I don't "believe" in distortion figures from other sources that don't raise input levels. You can get rather excellent results at 1 watt/1 meter.. but in a subwoofer/woofer/midbass driver - you are going to be exceeding that on occasion dynamically (..sometimes often).
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Last edited by ScottG; 12th September 2019 at 08:18 PM.
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Old 12th September 2019, 08:26 PM   #70
Zvu is offline Zvu  Serbia
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Duly noted, but check these two measurements of distorion for the same woofer:

PEERLESS HDS-P830869 (Woofer 8", 8 Ohm, 120 Wmax)

Peerless 830869 | HiFiCompass

The difference is too big. If measurements at Dibirama are off by 5 or 6% at 40Hz, then it doesn't look that bad - if we calculate that in.
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Last edited by Zvu; 12th September 2019 at 08:29 PM.
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