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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Powered speakers _ are they phase coherent by design ?
Powered speakers _ are they phase coherent by design ?
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:31 PM   #21
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Couldn't find a non-commercial source to prove your point?
Quote:
Originally Posted by yamaha
we are able to realize very smooth frequency response for stunning clarity and sound imaging without phase distortion.
This sentence mentions nothing about the effect of phase. Sensible.
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Old 9th September 2019, 01:43 PM   #22
Draki is offline Draki  Macedonia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Draki View Post
This is a random but very telling example (of a phase coherent passive, non-DSP multi-way system)

Vandersteen Audio Treo loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
Too late to edit, so here is one further clarification : the above example is not only time coherent, but also time coincident. Big difference.
Every time coincident system is also time coherent; the reverse, rarely.
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Old 9th September 2019, 02:30 PM   #23
Datsun is offline Datsun  Russian Federation
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginetto61 View Post
- is phase coherency really important in a speaker ?
Not. Phase coherence is the location of voice coils on one axis. Phase linearity is its graph that does not cross the 0-axis. But in any case, the good / bad crossover will greatly affect the phase curve.
And the result will be a group delay time of the signal and if this indicator is within 1-2 milliseconds, then it is impossible to determine by phase a coherent and ordinary speaker.
And besides this, the exact distance of the left / right speakers to the listener is very important.
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Old 9th September 2019, 02:40 PM   #24
mark100 is offline mark100  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenB View Post
Couldn't find a non-commercial source to prove your point?

This sentence mentions nothing about the effect of phase. Sensible.
Funny Cause that was my point...the whole prosound sector (commercial), has decided phase coherency is important.
A sector with huge R&D budgets and testing facilities.
And an extremely competitive sector where brand loyalty and ownership ego, barely exists.

And they are all, without exception afaict, touting phase coherency.
Either for the simple sonic benefit to a single speaker, or the ability to manipulate phase for line array pattern control, or the emerging immersive sound / acoustic space sculpting market.
The scope of technological change and product development is amazing to me, honestly it makes home audio seem stuck in the mud. Maybe that's my big underlying point Lol

Some folks strongly prefer academic studies and theoretical discussions to prove points. Trying to eliminate bias. Cool.
Makes for good product designs/ good recipes.
But still, the proof is in the pudding...the product itself....so commercial information doesn't bother me (as long as I can ignore marketing! )



"we are able to realize very smooth frequency response for stunning clarity and sound imaging without phase distortion."
You seem to see the sentence mentions nothing about the effect of phase,
while i see yamaha saying they were able to eliminate the usual phase distortion.

Funny again... I guess we both read into something what we want to see..
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Old 10th September 2019, 02:12 AM   #25
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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Phase linearity is not something that is only attainable in recent times.

A good speaker will have good response and group delay properties. These happen to produce phase linearity.
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Old 10th September 2019, 02:33 AM   #26
planet10 is offline planet10  Canada
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Powered speakers _ are they phase coherent by design ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by phase_accurate View Post
… simple active crossover for a wideband Driver plus woofer topology
An approach i have found can be very good.

dave
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Old 10th September 2019, 03:12 AM   #27
Soldermizer is offline Soldermizer  United States
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Default Read threads about Danley Synergy or Unity horns

The Danley-invented Unity and its upgrade, the Syngery, are claimed to be very phase correct, a virtual point source. Elsewhere there are threads about time aligning of drivers, which is related to phase. I am a happy user of a sort-of bastard Danley system, the Yorkville U15 Unity. Mine came used (trashed) and I always active EQ-ed them. With DSP (JRiver Media Center), and REW, I have them EQ-ed and timing corrected, within my limited testing powers. They are easily the most realistic imagining speakers I ever have owned, and I've had many (not horns though). Much of my material is 128K MP3 or its streamed equivalent. Most things sound wonderful. Surely this impression is not entirely due to the effects of cannibis herb.
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Last edited by Soldermizer; 10th September 2019 at 03:15 AM. Reason: Added smart *** remark
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:14 AM   #28
picowallspeaker is offline picowallspeaker  Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ginetto61 View Post
Thank you very much indeed. I think i have identified better the problem with your help.
I should have asked about phase coherent crossovers ?
is there any link treating this precise topic ?
And i also wonder if active xovers are easier to me built phase coherent than passive ones.
Actually i do not understand why not all commercial crossovers are phase coherent ... is it so difficult to design one ?
Thanks a lot again,
Kind regards
Filter theory covers that.
It says that a filter does phase change at a certain stage
Odd order filters do 270° and 90° and equal order 180° and 360° ( I didn't know that with cascaded 2nd order filter you lose a full period)
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Last edited by picowallspeaker; 10th September 2019 at 04:16 AM.
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Old 10th September 2019, 04:21 AM   #29
picowallspeaker is offline picowallspeaker  Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phase_accurate View Post
There are some ways to build transient-perfect (=phase-coherent) or at least transient-improved crossovers that can't be done easily in a passive way.

I once did a quite simple active crossover for a wideband Driver plus woofer topology which is not that difficult to implement and that is almost transient perfect. For ages I wanted to do that one again with cheaper drivers buit I didn't find any time for it so far.

Regards

Charles
Quote:
Originally Posted by planet10 View Post
An approach i have found can be very good.

dave
I managed to add a tweeter and make it a three way
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Old 10th September 2019, 06:44 AM   #30
phase_accurate is online now phase_accurate
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Quote:
I managed to add a tweeter and make it a three way
Congratulations on that. What crossover topology did you use ?

Regards

Charles
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