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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Home audio loudspeaker - 8"/10"/15" Coaxials crossover at 1000Hz
Home audio loudspeaker - 8"/10"/15" Coaxials crossover at 1000Hz
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Old 7th September 2019, 06:27 PM   #21
krivium is online now krivium  France
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Mayhem,
It seems to be a pattern in the way to (we think how to) use coax (to their optimum)!
I never used my Tannoy like Earl described. I will try that when time allow!
Isn't a Danley Sound Lab product you are talking about? I remember seeing one model with a relatively large coax inside a ( kind of) waveguide from them.
That said i think to have read a thread here where most said it wasn't a good idea if my memory serve... i'll search about that.

Zvu, i never had a chance to listen 'in real' to Kef's Uni Q drivers. I've listened to comparison Mitchba have on his site however. But it is not like real life experience of the thing imho ( as both the Ls50 and his own system are eqed to be equivalent).
Let us know what you think of the Tymphany when you got it!

Last edited by krivium; 7th September 2019 at 06:33 PM.
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Old 7th September 2019, 07:11 PM   #22
maty tinman is offline maty tinman  Spain
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Default KEF LS50W and KEF Q100

@Zvu

This morning, after uploading an image of the spectral decay of the KEF LS50W I wrote:

Click the image to open in full size.

[Video] Speaker measurements by Danny Richie | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum

Quote:
Now, I can say again: I LOVE my modded KEF Q100 5.25" coaxial speakers!!!!

With three slightly touch in the frequency graph from JRMC 64-bit the sound is still better.
At 40 Hz, 1400 Hz and 1700 Hz.

Using as reference your measurements, for which I am immensely grateful.


KEF-Q100-fabricka-zvu.png

-> [IMG, link] http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/k...bricka-zvu.png


KEF-Q100-modifikovana-zvu.png

-> [IMG, link] http://maty.galeon.com/WP-imagenes/k...kovana-zvu.png
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Last edited by maty tinman; 7th September 2019 at 07:14 PM.
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Old 7th September 2019, 11:04 PM   #23
Zvu is offline Zvu  Serbia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krivium View Post
......

Zvu, i never had a chance to listen 'in real' to Kef's Uni Q drivers. I've listened to comparison Mitchba have on his site however. But it is not like real life experience of the thing imho ( as both the Ls50 and his own system are eqed to be equivalent)....
Mitchba listened to factory crossover LS50 which i consider not to be tailored for accuracy. Although it doesn't sound bad in regard to other factory loudspeakers, the drivers have lots of potential for upgrade by proper crossover. Let alone by adding a woofer bellow 150Hz to take over the bass duty.


Quote:
Originally Posted by krivium View Post
......Let us know what you think of the Tymphany when you got it!
Will do

@Maty - Danny Richie obviously messed it up in that measurement as CSD from John Atkinson shows a much cleaner picture:

KEF-LS50-spectral-decay-x2.png
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Old 8th September 2019, 06:35 AM   #24
maty tinman is offline maty tinman  Spain
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Spectral decay of KEF LS50W is from a PDF of HifiCritic. I could not believe the waterfall. Except to align the frequency response, what improvement is the DSP doing? Well, you can also align the phase optionally.

PDF from Hificritic:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja &uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwielfrTpb7kAhWN4YUKHf8yCVsQjhx6B AgBEAI&url=https://oslohificenter.no/streaming/aktive-hoyttalere/kef-ls50-wireless?iid=396959&pid=OHC-OHCProduct-ExternalReviews.OHC-PageLink-FileLink&psig=AOvVaw2Km2sg6JNc0IG6yCapST_g&ust=156 7930818915069

Danny measurements appear only in the video and comments two and three.
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Old 8th September 2019, 08:51 AM   #25
Qts is offline Qts
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Why these KEFs are brought to this thread? They are horrible and nothing to do, compared to big ones.
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Old 8th September 2019, 09:01 AM   #26
Zvu is offline Zvu  Serbia
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I have to disagree. Kef has Q900 which has 8" UniQ dual concentric driver. Now when it is replaced with Q950 i'm guessing one can buy used Q900 and use its dual concentric with what ever woofer he wants in his own cabinets.
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Old 8th September 2019, 09:02 AM   #27
krivium is online now krivium  France
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Mayhem,
The waveguide loaded coax i was thinking of are DSL SM100 and SM80.
Are they the one you were talking about?

Qts,
Because they are a possible choice ( despite the fact that they are not available to end user as spare parts if i understood correctly edit: crossposting with Zvu ).
With the revival of coax in proworld in past years ( Genelec, Presonus,...) and in hifi ( TAD) this is solutions that may give very good results if correctly implemented ( read not mass produced items).
Worth mentioning them in my view.
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Old 8th September 2019, 12:30 PM   #28
mayhem13 is offline mayhem13  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krivium View Post
Mayhem,
The waveguide loaded coax i was thinking of are DSL SM100 and SM80.
Are they the one you were talking about?

Qts,
Because they are a possible choice ( despite the fact that they are not available to end user as spare parts if i understood correctly edit: crossposting with Zvu ).
With the revival of coax in proworld in past years ( Genelec, Presonus,...) and in hifi ( TAD) this is solutions that may give very good results if correctly implemented ( read not mass produced items).
Worth mentioning them in my view.
Very similiar but a stage monitor and the waveguide transitions to rectangular in what looked like (by memory) an 80x50 pattern control or thereabouts. Still canít remember though!.......
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:37 AM   #29
swara is offline swara  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gedlee View Post
As a test, I once built a coax based on a B&C 10", I believe. To KISS, I made it a dipole on an open baffle. I was amazed at how good this could get for a speaker system which cost almost nothing (no box to build, a somewhat complicated crossover, but all-in-all quite inexpensive.) Trouble was of course that it had no bass response at all. If one were to do this with multiple subs I bet that you could build a great system.

Coax can never be quite as god as a separate waveguide system, but the later are so much more difficult and expensive. For value, the coax wins out.

Generally speaking the narrower the directivity the less negative effects the room will have on their perception, but it depends on the room, of course. Directivity is irrelevant in an anechoic room, but all important in a reverberant one. Home listening rooms tend to be all over the map with European construction being clearly more reverberant than typical US construction. But high directivity is never really detrimental, it just gets a lot harder to achieve as one goes narrower and narrower.
Thank you for your response. I will check out some B&C drivers. Where can I buy a oblate spheroid waveguide? I have heard some 80x50 waveguides and they result in stumpy singers (6 feet tall signers sound like dwarfs)
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Old 11th September 2019, 04:42 AM   #30
swara is offline swara  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krivium View Post
Hello Earl,
Yes i'm sure a multisub + coax will give great results. Even better if like you discribed in the '2 way high spl...' thread: as wideband as possible mains + mono multisub.

Swara,
Earl gave one important point in his answer: x over can be troublesome with coax.
That's why i didn't talk about passive but active dsp solution for your case. The electrical part of x over usually are asymetric for coax with something typically like 12db or 18db lp for woofer and 6db hp for CD.
Other options are possible but passive is usually like that. Sometimes you could find allpass cells used too.
This is related to the fact that emission points of both drivers are not always coincidents: direct radiator may be 'in advance' related to the CD ( iow the direct radiator is located 'in front' of CD emmission point). One other sneaky point is that emmission point 'move' with frequency, but with coax this is limited as directivity must match and 100hz difference shouldn't be dramatic difference.
This is not always true but it happend: my System 800 are the passive version and Tannoy didn't adress this issue with this one which is not the case with the active version.

I know because some mix/works i've done with active sound 'weird' with my passive around 1,5k which you probably have guessed is around the xover point (1,6khz from Tannoy doc).

With a dsp solution i could probably fix that using a delay ( a allpass filter is a passive equivalent to a delay- up to a limit). Passive this is hopeless as i should have to rebuild xover from scratch and i don't find this either funny or easy ( i'm a lazy dsp guy ).

B&C drivers are GREAT drivers, their coax too i agree with Earl about that too.
Swara have you seen Seaton Sound offer?
The Catalyst is a great example of what could be done: 8" B&C coax + 2x12" sub in mtm dsp driven with classD amp.(edit: he added a new catalyst with 8" subs. Probably from Acoustic Elegance like most sub he use).
The latest TAD effort are worth a look at too: 6,5" ( or 8" idon't remember) coax + 2x 8" (or 10") in a TMM form factor ( making it a 3,5 way).
(edit: just checked: 6,5" and 2x 10". This seems to be approximately the same balance of cone area as seaton's sound between coax and sub drivers. This could be a 6,5" and a 15" too and i bet it could sound even better this way than with 2x10").

Both are great source for inspiration imho.

Swara two other questions: what is your ceiling height? And what are your main source?
The height is to determine overall volume of your room ( and thus have an idea of the membrane area you'll need for sub) , the source is to give you hint about what could work for dsp filter solution.

One last thing: you should go to Earl's site and read the whitepapers! Lot of knowledge and practical answer to reallife issue to be gained.
I expected the passive crossover to be complex. I was more concerned about the phase than a slightly wavy frequency response.

I will check out the Seaton Catalyst loudspeaker.

My ceiling height is 9ft and my source is a laptop with Roon as the audio player.
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