Seeking new build advice - please offer your .02

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Greetings all!

I have taken my first real plunge into tube audio and am building two VTA M-125 monoblocks. So plenty of horsepower, even if it may not be needed.

I am torn between multiple designs proven designs and no idea which direction to go. I listen to everything from classical to collectable punk rock vinyl.

Listening room and space are somewhat at a premium, so size is a consideration. Cost is also a consideration. I don't mind spending some money, but also don't want to sink thousands into a build.

Do I go with something like the Ariel or other TLine? Maybe a Fostex or other horn design? Taditional MTM or 3 way? Other ideas?

Tube guys who listen to a wide range of music - I am looking for advice here. I don't mind adding a sub if that is a must, but would like to avoid it if possible.

Thanks!
 
What is your budget? How big is too big; do you want a floor-stander or a stand-mount cabinet? If you want a transmission-line design, you can do far better than the Ariel.
Paul

Greetings all!

I have taken my first real plunge into tube audio and am building two VTA M-125 monoblocks. So plenty of horsepower, even if it may not be needed.

I am torn between multiple designs proven designs and no idea which direction to go. I listen to everything from classical to collectable punk rock vinyl.

Listening room and space are somewhat at a premium, so size is a consideration. Cost is also a consideration. I don't mind spending some money, but also don't want to sink thousands into a build.

Do I go with something like the Ariel or other TLine? Maybe a Fostex or other horn design? Taditional MTM or 3 way? Other ideas?

Tube guys who listen to a wide range of music - I am looking for advice here. I don't mind adding a sub if that is a must, but would like to avoid it if possible.

Thanks!
 
Paul thanks for the response...

My "listening room" is my home theater. 7' hard ceiling and walls with little acoustical treatment (may be one day?) Carpeted concrete floor and leather furniture. So far from ideal. The room is roughly 12'x25' with the listening/viewing position at about the midpoint.

Something the size of the Ariel is about as big as I would want to go. I.E. The room currently already has a pair of Mirage OM-6 speakers dedicated to the HT (they are not ideal either, but what I have).

Budget - drivers and crossover for the pair - I would not want to spend over 1K and if i could get away for half of that, I would be very pleased.

I really want to build something that will compliment the tube monoblocks - while I can play loud rock on any old speaker - I want something that will shine with other sources and still be able to play the rock.
 
The traditional 3-way just about covers all bases, for the budget end go for 'Tarkus', if you want to go a bit more up market try one of Troel's 3 Way classics, or one of his other 3 way designs if you want something a bit more skinny & modern....
I'd go for 10" woofer (or 2x 8"), 4" mid + tweeter
 
Do you want the wide polar sound of a dome tweeter, or do you want controlled directivity from a horn with a tweeter compression driver?

Cabinet size.... you want a narrow front baffle like the 8" Ariel, how deep can you accept?

Not quite sure that I can narrow (no pun) that down. I imagine that the dome would be more forgiving with regard to listening position and overall room constraints. That said, I have zero experience with compression drivers in this type of setting. From what I have gathered over the years, GOOD compression tweeters are rather spendy compared to comparable quality domes.

Cabinet wise I would like to keep the dimensions no wider than 12" and not much deeper. There are no hard constraints, but I just can't build monster corner horns or anything like that.
 
@pkitt - so the Ariel drivers are not even available, taking that off the table. You indicate that I can do far better with regard to TL - Recommendations?

@Pete - thank you for the advice. Not sure I am looking for traditional 3-way alignments, but if that is the best bang and application for the criteria, then they are not off the table.
 
I do not for a second want to criticize the Ariel's designer, Lynn Olson, as I respect immensely his knowledge, expertise and contributions to DIY speaker builders, but since he created the Ariel we've been blessed with the availability of modeling software that allow a much, much better possibility of designing really good-performing TLs of various forms. I've been using Martin King's software for well over a decade and it has allowed me to create and build a number of good TL speakers for my personal enjoyment and well as being able to design TLs for many others to build. I'd be happy to share with you some of my personal builds if you send me a private message that includes your email address.
Paul

@pkitt - so the Ariel drivers are not even available, taking that off the table. You indicate that I can do far better with regard to TL - Recommendations?

@Pete - thank you for the advice. Not sure I am looking for traditional 3-way alignments, but if that is the best bang and application for the criteria, then they are not off the table.
 
Do I go with something like the Ariel or other TLine? Maybe a Fostex or other horn design? Taditional MTM or 3 way? Other ideas?

Tube guys who listen to a wide range of music - I am looking for advice here. I don't mind adding a sub if that is a must, but would like to avoid it if possible.

Thanks!


..it's going to be tough to get much better than the speakers you already have in a fairly "full-range" design with something as small as the Ariel. :eek:

If it's a matter of "foot-print" then you might consider a tall line-array with a side(panel)-loaded sub. That should net you something different and potentially better than your Mirage's.
 
My biggest issue with the Mirage is that the dipoles are so hard to place properly in the room, especially given my hard surfaces and room layout. They are bearable for movies but horrid for music no matter what I do.

I have no experience listing to line arrays in an audiophile setting, so would have no idea what to expect.
 
I don't think the TL in the Ariel was really much about significant low freq. extension.. more about getting a good midrange balance (and driver resistance) for the design.

More or less. It's good for about 50Hz, which realistically is about all those P13s could manage, and smoother in behaviour than you'd expect -the heavy folding of the final section does a reasonable job. You can squeeze a bit more out of them (not much) but they don't thank you for it. Historical interest now of course since the P13 is no more. If the OP wants an MTM, Troels's SBA-16 design is worth a gander.
 
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..it's going to be tough to get much better than the speakers you already have in a fairly "full-range" design with something as small as the Ariel. :eek:

If it's a matter of "foot-print" then you might consider a tall line-array with a side(panel)-loaded sub. That should net you something different and potentially better than your Mirage's.

Taking a serious look at a few TL designs recommended by Paul.

Is there a line array project that you could point to ScottG?

The more I churn this around, the more I feel this could (over time, based on results) morph into also center and surround siblings.
 
More or less. It's good for about 50Hz, which realistically is about all those P13s could manage, and smoother in behaviour than you'd expect -the heavy folding of the final section does a reasonable job. You can squeeze a bit more out of them (not much) but they don't thank you for it. Historical interest now of course since the P13 is no more. If the OP wants an MTM, Troels's SBA-16 design is worth a gander.

Was hoping to do something a bit less traditional, but if there is a compelling reason in context to my room and given criteria, I am all ears.
 
As you wish; I'm a mite curious though why you appear to consider Troels's SBA-16, using state-of-the-art drive units, to be more traditional than the Ariel, which is now 27 years old and using drivers designed about 35 years ago? :scratch1: Granted, the SBA-16 is a straightforward vented box, nothing particularly novel on that front. You can always convert it to a QW / TL variation though, no big deal on that front. Note that novelty doesn't necessarily equate to superiority though. The Ariel enclosure for example is more complicated than it needed to be to do the job it was meant to do (Lynn missed a trick when transitioning from the V3 to V4 variaton). Paul's QW designs will be worth a serious look -he does some excellent QW cabinet designs. However, as a piece of broad advice, do not dismiss a speaker design just because it uses a fairly common type of enclosure load, unless of course novelty on that front is a key objective.
 
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My biggest issue with the Mirage is that the dipoles are so hard to place properly in the room, especially given my hard surfaces and room layout. They are bearable for movies but horrid for music no matter what I do.
WIKI
"The on axis, free space directivity factor for sound sources with several common free space radiation patterns are as follows: Monopole: DF = 1.0, Dipole: DF = 3, Cardioid: DF = 3, 90x90 Horn: DF=8.27. What this means is that if these three different sources are to radiate the same total acoustic power then if the monopole has an on axis intensity of 1.0 the dipole and cardioid will have an on axis intensity of 3.0 or 4.77 dB greater, and the horn will have an on axis intensity of 8.27 or 9.2 dB greater. Conversely, if the difference sources are to have the same on axis intensity then the dipole and cardioid will radiate 1/3 the acoustic power of the monopole, and the horn 1/9 the acoustic power of the monopole. When studying room acoustics and reverberation this means that the "critical distance" from the speaker will be greater for a dipole or cardioid or horn than for a monopole. The "critical distance" is the distance at which direct and reflected sound are equal. The level of the reflected sound, above the modal region of the room, is usually considered constant and proportional to the total radiated power. Thus when sitting the same distance from a conventional speaker and a dipole/horn, the dipole/horn can potentially sound more detailed since at the position that ratio of direct to reflected sound is greater. "
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Both dipole and horn designs control directivity to reduce early reflections from hard walls and floors. Draw your room floorplan and overlay Left+Right horn 90-degree polar patterns directed to the listener to see if early wall reflections can be reduced. A tweeter horn with a 40-degree vertical polar pattern will reduce early reflections off your hard floor and low ceiling.

Investing some study time on 2-way and 3-way speakers with a horn tweeter and modest cost midwoofer, or (midrange + woofer) would probably get you the best sound in your room.

(2-way Econowave) The $76 12" paper cone Dayton DS315P has been used with a few compression drivers + horns for $200 per speaker for parts.

(3-way) For the best budget sound, a 10" midrange + ported 12" woofer like the aluminum cone $85 Dayton DSA315 is worth the extra cost.

THESE are the speakers your tub amp was designed to drive.
============
$76 Eminence Dayton DS315P midbass
$65 Peerless 1" compression driver DFM-2544R00-08
$13 B-52 PHRN 1014 waveguide
$40 crossover parts
$194 total parts
 
As you wish; I'm a mite curious though why you appear to consider Troels's SBA-16, using state-of-the-art drive units, to be more traditional than the Ariel, which is now 27 years old and using drivers designed about 35 years ago? :scratch1: Granted, the SBA-16 is a straightforward vented box, nothing particularly novel on that front. You can always convert it to a QW / TL variation though, no big deal on that front. Note that novelty doesn't necessarily equate to superiority though...

...unless of course novelty on that front is a key objective.

As you assumed, I used ‘traditional’ in the context of alignment... novelty plays strongly into my desire to build, but is not a deal breaker.

In the end, I am looking for the most suitable for my listening space, music diversity, foray into glass audio and budget of $200 - $1000 for the pair, including drivers and crossovers.

As much as I love the hobby and would like to fiddle and design, I simply do not have the time or budget to tinker with multiple designs. I feel it best to build a proven design and be happy to at least have some level of participation in the hobby instead of none.

So in the end, this is about getting solid input from the gurus and narrowing down my choices so that I can make an informed decision and jump in.
 
Is there a line array project that you could point to ScottG?

The more I churn this around, the more I feel this could (over time, based on results) morph into also center and surround siblings.

-like many others, you've got a lot of conflicting "wish's". :eek:

*Narrow baffle + room reflection problem = (serious) conflict.


A cardioid mid. line array with smaller horns would would work, but I don't know of such a design. :eek:

It would however be fairly easy to accomplish with a miniDSP.. though your amplifier would probably only be used for midrange array (..which really isn't a problem considering that most of the (good) character provided by a tube amplifier is within 200 Hz to 2 kHz.)


*if it weren't for the narrow baffle I'd direct you to a synergy horn design - which would be more useful in the context of HT (in addition to music listening): particularly with a center channel option.
 
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THESE are the speakers your tub amp was designed to drive.
============
$76 Eminence Dayton DS315P midbass
$65 Peerless 1" compression driver DFM-2544R00-08
$13 B-52 PHRN 1014 waveguide
$40 crossover parts
$194 total parts

Is there a “high end” version of this that you would recommend? Posing around I see the Jeff Bagby Temptest and some other SEOS econowave projects? Can one do even better?

As I mentioned in the other posts, I would prefer a tried and tested project. I don’t think I want to delve into trying to design a crossover at this point, and don’t think a miniDSP is in the cards.
 
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