Go Back   Home > Forums > >
Home Forums Rules Articles diyAudio Store Blogs Gallery Wiki Register Donations FAQ Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Seeking new build advice - please offer your .02
Seeking new build advice - please offer your .02
Please consider donating to help us continue to serve you.

Ads on/off / Custom Title / More PMs / More album space / Advanced printing & mass image saving
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 2nd August 2019, 10:26 PM   #11
BeanAnimal is offline BeanAnimal  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
My biggest issue with the Mirage is that the dipoles are so hard to place properly in the room, especially given my hard surfaces and room layout. They are bearable for movies but horrid for music no matter what I do.

I have no experience listing to line arrays in an audiophile setting, so would have no idea what to expect.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2019, 10:34 AM   #12
Scottmoose is offline Scottmoose  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Scottmoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
I don't think the TL in the Ariel was really much about significant low freq. extension.. more about getting a good midrange balance (and driver resistance) for the design.
More or less. It's good for about 50Hz, which realistically is about all those P13s could manage, and smoother in behaviour than you'd expect -the heavy folding of the final section does a reasonable job. You can squeeze a bit more out of them (not much) but they don't thank you for it. Historical interest now of course since the P13 is no more. If the OP wants an MTM, Troels's SBA-16 design is worth a gander.
__________________
"'That'll do", comes the cry of the perfectionist down the ages.' James May -The Reassembler
www.wodendesign.com Community sites www.frugal-horn.com http://frugal-phile.com/

Last edited by Scottmoose; 3rd August 2019 at 10:36 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2019, 02:41 PM   #13
BeanAnimal is offline BeanAnimal  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottG View Post
..it's going to be tough to get much better than the speakers you already have in a fairly "full-range" design with something as small as the Ariel.

If it's a matter of "foot-print" then you might consider a tall line-array with a side(panel)-loaded sub. That should net you something different and potentially better than your Mirage's.
Taking a serious look at a few TL designs recommended by Paul.

Is there a line array project that you could point to ScottG?

The more I churn this around, the more I feel this could (over time, based on results) morph into also center and surround siblings.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2019, 02:43 PM   #14
BeanAnimal is offline BeanAnimal  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottmoose View Post
More or less. It's good for about 50Hz, which realistically is about all those P13s could manage, and smoother in behaviour than you'd expect -the heavy folding of the final section does a reasonable job. You can squeeze a bit more out of them (not much) but they don't thank you for it. Historical interest now of course since the P13 is no more. If the OP wants an MTM, Troels's SBA-16 design is worth a gander.
Was hoping to do something a bit less traditional, but if there is a compelling reason in context to my room and given criteria, I am all ears.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2019, 02:52 PM   #15
Scottmoose is offline Scottmoose  United Kingdom
diyAudio Member
 
Scottmoose's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: UK
As you wish; I'm a mite curious though why you appear to consider Troels's SBA-16, using state-of-the-art drive units, to be more traditional than the Ariel, which is now 27 years old and using drivers designed about 35 years ago? Granted, the SBA-16 is a straightforward vented box, nothing particularly novel on that front. You can always convert it to a QW / TL variation though, no big deal on that front. Note that novelty doesn't necessarily equate to superiority though. The Ariel enclosure for example is more complicated than it needed to be to do the job it was meant to do (Lynn missed a trick when transitioning from the V3 to V4 variaton). Paul's QW designs will be worth a serious look -he does some excellent QW cabinet designs. However, as a piece of broad advice, do not dismiss a speaker design just because it uses a fairly common type of enclosure load, unless of course novelty on that front is a key objective.
__________________
"'That'll do", comes the cry of the perfectionist down the ages.' James May -The Reassembler
www.wodendesign.com Community sites www.frugal-horn.com http://frugal-phile.com/

Last edited by Scottmoose; 3rd August 2019 at 03:11 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2019, 04:35 PM   #16
LineSource is offline LineSource  United States
diyAudio Member
 
LineSource's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: SiliconValley
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanAnimal View Post
My biggest issue with the Mirage is that the dipoles are so hard to place properly in the room, especially given my hard surfaces and room layout. They are bearable for movies but horrid for music no matter what I do.
WIKI
"The on axis, free space directivity factor for sound sources with several common free space radiation patterns are as follows: Monopole: DF = 1.0, Dipole: DF = 3, Cardioid: DF = 3, 90x90 Horn: DF=8.27. What this means is that if these three different sources are to radiate the same total acoustic power then if the monopole has an on axis intensity of 1.0 the dipole and cardioid will have an on axis intensity of 3.0 or 4.77 dB greater, and the horn will have an on axis intensity of 8.27 or 9.2 dB greater. Conversely, if the difference sources are to have the same on axis intensity then the dipole and cardioid will radiate 1/3 the acoustic power of the monopole, and the horn 1/9 the acoustic power of the monopole. When studying room acoustics and reverberation this means that the "critical distance" from the speaker will be greater for a dipole or cardioid or horn than for a monopole. The "critical distance" is the distance at which direct and reflected sound are equal. The level of the reflected sound, above the modal region of the room, is usually considered constant and proportional to the total radiated power. Thus when sitting the same distance from a conventional speaker and a dipole/horn, the dipole/horn can potentially sound more detailed since at the position that ratio of direct to reflected sound is greater. "
=========

Both dipole and horn designs control directivity to reduce early reflections from hard walls and floors. Draw your room floorplan and overlay Left+Right horn 90-degree polar patterns directed to the listener to see if early wall reflections can be reduced. A tweeter horn with a 40-degree vertical polar pattern will reduce early reflections off your hard floor and low ceiling.

Investing some study time on 2-way and 3-way speakers with a horn tweeter and modest cost midwoofer, or (midrange + woofer) would probably get you the best sound in your room.

(2-way Econowave) The $76 12" paper cone Dayton DS315P has been used with a few compression drivers + horns for $200 per speaker for parts.

(3-way) For the best budget sound, a 10" midrange + ported 12" woofer like the aluminum cone $85 Dayton DSA315 is worth the extra cost.

THESE are the speakers your tub amp was designed to drive.
============
$76 Eminence Dayton DS315P midbass
$65 Peerless 1" compression driver DFM-2544R00-08
$13 B-52 PHRN 1014 waveguide
$40 crossover parts
$194 total parts
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2019, 05:20 PM   #17
BeanAnimal is offline BeanAnimal  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scottmoose View Post
As you wish; I'm a mite curious though why you appear to consider Troels's SBA-16, using state-of-the-art drive units, to be more traditional than the Ariel, which is now 27 years old and using drivers designed about 35 years ago? Granted, the SBA-16 is a straightforward vented box, nothing particularly novel on that front. You can always convert it to a QW / TL variation though, no big deal on that front. Note that novelty doesn't necessarily equate to superiority though...

...unless of course novelty on that front is a key objective.
As you assumed, I used ‘traditional’ in the context of alignment... novelty plays strongly into my desire to build, but is not a deal breaker.

In the end, I am looking for the most suitable for my listening space, music diversity, foray into glass audio and budget of $200 - $1000 for the pair, including drivers and crossovers.

As much as I love the hobby and would like to fiddle and design, I simply do not have the time or budget to tinker with multiple designs. I feel it best to build a proven design and be happy to at least have some level of participation in the hobby instead of none.

So in the end, this is about getting solid input from the gurus and narrowing down my choices so that I can make an informed decision and jump in.
  Reply With Quote
Old 3rd August 2019, 08:38 PM   #18
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: US
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanAnimal View Post
Is there a line array project that you could point to ScottG?

The more I churn this around, the more I feel this could (over time, based on results) morph into also center and surround siblings.
-like many others, you've got a lot of conflicting "wish's".

*Narrow baffle + room reflection problem = (serious) conflict.


A cardioid mid. line array with smaller horns would would work, but I don't know of such a design.

It would however be fairly easy to accomplish with a miniDSP.. though your amplifier would probably only be used for midrange array (..which really isn't a problem considering that most of the (good) character provided by a tube amplifier is within 200 Hz to 2 kHz.)


*if it weren't for the narrow baffle I'd direct you to a synergy horn design - which would be more useful in the context of HT (in addition to music listening): particularly with a center channel option.
__________________
perspective is everything

Last edited by ScottG; 3rd August 2019 at 08:42 PM.
  Reply With Quote
Old 4th August 2019, 12:41 PM   #19
BeanAnimal is offline BeanAnimal  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Quote:
THESE are the speakers your tub amp was designed to drive.
============
$76 Eminence Dayton DS315P midbass
$65 Peerless 1" compression driver DFM-2544R00-08
$13 B-52 PHRN 1014 waveguide
$40 crossover parts
$194 total parts
Is there a “high end” version of this that you would recommend? Posing around I see the Jeff Bagby Temptest and some other SEOS econowave projects? Can one do even better?

As I mentioned in the other posts, I would prefer a tried and tested project. I don’t think I want to delve into trying to design a crossover at this point, and don’t think a miniDSP is in the cards.
  Reply With Quote
Old 8th August 2019, 08:15 PM   #20
BeanAnimal is offline BeanAnimal  United States
diyAudio Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Pittsburgh
Bumping my own thread here - still looking for help narrowing down my choices and choosing the project to build.
  Reply With Quote

Reply


Seeking new build advice - please offer your .02Hide this!Advertise here!
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Seeking Crossover-advice for 3-way build Sheezkebab Class D 2 14th August 2014 10:53 PM
Seeking troubleshooting advice for my first amp build. GiF Instruments and Amps 13 26th May 2014 10:53 AM
Seeking Advice M42 Full Range 2 3rd March 2014 06:40 PM
Please offer advice/suggestions for first schematic Tube Noob Chip Amps 2 29th November 2011 11:43 AM
Seeking amplifier kit advice – which 1 to build? Stu_M Solid State 19 29th September 2007 12:09 PM


New To Site? Need Help?

All times are GMT. The time now is 07:22 PM.


Search Engine Optimisation provided by DragonByte SEO (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Resources saved on this page: MySQL 14.29%
vBulletin Optimisation provided by vB Optimise (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright ©1999-2019 diyAudio
Wiki