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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Help with Speaker Design
Help with Speaker Design
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:09 AM   #1
10000 hz legend is offline 10000 hz legend  United States
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Default Help with Speaker Design

Hi,

I have been looking to do a speaker build for many years and need a little guidance. I am here looking for help from someone with experience and the necessary software to point me in the right direction. Id like to work one on one with you and will pay for your services. (I do not see anything in the rules regarding this. I am hoping this is not a violation).

My goals:

Full range floor-standing speaker with coaxial midrange/tweeter and two 10 woofers in a separate sealed enclosure below. I have had this design in mind for a very long and simply do not have the information I need to execute it, especially regarding crossover design and driver selection. I have a lot of experience in woodworking and have built a few speaker projects in the past. I just need some professional advice to iron out some of the flaws and tell me what to do regarding crossovers.

Any takers?
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Old 17th July 2019, 06:26 AM   #2
Draki is offline Draki  Macedonia
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Check this SEAS kit for starters. It has one 10" bass, but being (semi)active a second one could be added:
SEAS KingRO4Y Mk II
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Old 17th July 2019, 07:57 AM   #3
andy19191 is offline andy19191  Europe
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Most on here are amateur enthusiasts and not professionals. It won't be financially viable to employ independent professionals for a one off DIY design. However, there are number of people that have business ventures that involve selling their own (usually) speaker designs who might be interested in working with you to add to their portfolio. If they like the configuration and have you as a guaranteed first customer you could be in luck. Most people involved in this type of activity are competent speaker designers with the odd exception.

An alternative is an enthusiastic amateur. Competence here is going to be variable (enthusiasm and competence are often inversely related) but there are certainly people with an interest as shown by threads on group designs. Writing the spec for a group design and asking for interest might be something to consider if you are happy for everything to be open.
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Old 17th July 2019, 08:15 AM   #4
Ugg10 is offline Ugg10  United Kingdom
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There is a thread on here looking at the Tang Band w6-2313 coaxial in a box similar to the Kef LS50.

TB new line of Coax FR drivers


here is the Tang Band suggested enclosure for the W6-2313 which is discussed in the thread above - SUG2-25 - 6.5" 2 Way Coaxial Bookshelf Enclosure Suggestion - TB SPEAKER CO., LTD.

So, is your idea something like an LS50 on top of a BK Electronics Double Gem. (You could always buy these off the shelf and add a minidsp 2x4HD to sort out the crossover and do room EQ).

Double Gem

LS50 – KEF UK

if you were not fixed on a coaxial and have deep pockets then this may suit - ATS-4


As an alternative to the coaxial then you could also look at some of the full range speakers that can be uses as a WAW (or FAST), you may find some of these in the full range part of this forum or search Planet10 speakers.

Last edited by Ugg10; 17th July 2019 at 08:20 AM.
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Old 17th July 2019, 10:35 AM   #5
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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There is much information in this forum that theoretically anyone with a little bit of a sense for these things, should be able on one's own to build such a loudspeaker. There is provisions for all the software needed, white paper on how to do what, the only real issue would probably be not wanting to spend some time gathering information. My guess is a single month of research should be enough to start executing. In the mean time, one can/should ask for advice to speed it up.
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Old 17th July 2019, 12:19 PM   #6
10000 hz legend is offline 10000 hz legend  United States
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@ugg10 - Yes, Kef Ls50 on top of something similar to the double gem and the Tang Band W6-2313 is something I’ve looked into and am considering. I even considered buying a pair of KEF LS50s and adding something like the double gem to them, but I want a more fixed solution than this and want to limit the amount of excursion coming from the kefs to keep the midrange nice and accurate.

@andy19191 - Amateur enthusiast is fine as long as you have some software and have a better understanding of crossovers. For instance, if I go with the Tang Band I would need a high pass and a bandpass for the tweeter and midrange, then I would need a low pass for the two woofers. I would like the opportunity to bi-amp, so dual binding posts is a must. . I am also aiming to have a fairly warm sounding speaker, more of an old school sound with a bit of a bump in the bass, so should I be crossing over at 250hz, 500hz, 750hz? And will I need attentuation on any of the drivers to get a more flat response? I don’t know the answers to these questions. And although I have a good understanding of the crossovers and am an amateur audio engineer I don’t know how to build a crossover piece by piece. The cabinet is no problem for me, but I’d like to keep it simple.
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Old 17th July 2019, 01:26 PM   #7
koja is offline koja  Canada
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In all fairness, there is probably no need for you to design anything from scratch. The most I do is take a design from one of the DIY gurus and then change it to suit my own needs (which may involve some Xover redesign). p.s. Well, having said that, I do have one 3 way OB which is 100% home brewed just as a challenge for myself .

You should not get hung up on any preconceived notion about the speaker configuration but do research. Start with your room size, choice of music, coverage area, listening volume, available budget, available space, available amps, etc. and look for what the knowledgeable DIYers seem to concur on.

The coax is not worth the effort unless the space is restricted. The tweeter waveguide is not meant to move like the mid cone in a coax. Just look at the curves for Seas C18EN002. They hold promise for off axis dispersion (which is quite admirable), the rest is a nightmare to work with. Check out the complexity of the Minerva Xover in the link at this post:

Coaxial drivers for ultimate speaker?

it explains why the coaxes will never get significant traction as commercial offerings. (btw I never heard that speaker but posted graphs look like they really did their homework).

p.s. in the same thread Bateman advocates for synergies as better than coaxes. I have not done either, and if I do some day I will tackle it only as an engineering challenge as what I have is hard to beat in my applications.

Last edited by koja; 17th July 2019 at 01:29 PM.
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Old 17th July 2019, 02:42 PM   #8
andy19191 is offline andy19191  Europe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 10000 hz legend View Post
@andy19191 - Amateur enthusiast is fine as long as you have some software and have a better understanding of crossovers. For instance, if I go with the Tang Band I would need a high pass and a bandpass for the tweeter and midrange, then I would need a low pass for the two woofers. I would like the opportunity to bi-amp, so dual binding posts is a must. . I am also aiming to have a fairly warm sounding speaker, more of an old school sound with a bit of a bump in the bass, so should I be crossing over at 250hz, 500hz, 750hz? And will I need attentuation on any of the drivers to get a more flat response? I dont know the answers to these questions. And although I have a good understanding of the crossovers and am an amateur audio engineer I dont know how to build a crossover piece by piece. The cabinet is no problem for me, but Id like to keep it simple.
I am interested in your project and how you get on but I was not volunteering for the design. My interest stems from currently being in the process of designing a speaker with a KEF coaxial midrange+tweeter and woofers in separate cabinets. Initially 8" drivers because I have them to hand but later after a bit of testing probably something else. I have no interest in passive crossovers which are awkward, expensive and inflexible but others seem to enjoy the challenge. I am also looking at wall or corner mounting rather than large speakers out in the room.

How to competently design a passive crossover requires some study but nothing major. It is also likely the design will be close but not quite right on the first attempt requiring a bit of measuring, listening, thinking and tweaking of component values. If you pay someone to run a bit of software for you this stage is likely to be lost.
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Old 17th July 2019, 03:36 PM   #9
buggers is offline buggers  United States
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Your best bet is to find an established and tested design {that is, one that others have built and like the sound of} that suits your purposes and build it. This question has been asked hundreds of times on all the forums and to date I have seen only 1 taker, and that person built the speaker and shipped it to the Xover designer. This is the only correct way to do it.
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Old 17th July 2019, 07:49 PM   #10
10000 hz legend is offline 10000 hz legend  United States
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As I said, I have a very good idea of what I want to build. 6-1/2 coaxial in a sealed enclosure with 2 10inch woofers below it in a separate sealed enclosure.

All I really need is someone to give me some suggestions of drivers that perform well in sealed enclosures, then enter the specifications of those drivers into a computer program and give me a few viable options for crossover designs. Then I choose one of those designs after some chatting about the pros and cons and I run with it. Then that someone sends me a wiring diagram and shopping list for crossover components. Pretty simple stuff I thought. I don’t expect perfection. There are many people on this forum that have built many speakers and have a much better understanding of the mathematics and physics behind loudspeaker design than I do. I don’t understand all of the pessimism.

Maybe I should rephrase my post - “Hey, I’ll give you $50 to run some numbers for me and make a 30min phone call. Sound good?”
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