Hi,
I have been looking to do a speaker build for many years and need a little guidance. I am here looking for help from someone with experience and the necessary software to point me in the right direction. I’d like to work one on one with you and will pay for your services. (I do not see anything in the rules regarding this. I am hoping this is not a violation).
My goals:
Full range floor-standing speaker with coaxial midrange/tweeter and two 10” woofers in a separate sealed enclosure below. I have had this design in mind for a very long and simply do not have the information I need to execute it, especially regarding crossover design and driver selection. I have a lot of experience in woodworking and have built a few speaker projects in the past. I just need some professional advice to iron out some of the flaws and tell me what to do regarding crossovers.
Any takers?
I have been looking to do a speaker build for many years and need a little guidance. I am here looking for help from someone with experience and the necessary software to point me in the right direction. I’d like to work one on one with you and will pay for your services. (I do not see anything in the rules regarding this. I am hoping this is not a violation).
My goals:
Full range floor-standing speaker with coaxial midrange/tweeter and two 10” woofers in a separate sealed enclosure below. I have had this design in mind for a very long and simply do not have the information I need to execute it, especially regarding crossover design and driver selection. I have a lot of experience in woodworking and have built a few speaker projects in the past. I just need some professional advice to iron out some of the flaws and tell me what to do regarding crossovers.
Any takers?
Check this SEAS kit for starters. It has one 10" bass, but being (semi)active a second one could be added:
SEAS KingRO4Y Mk II
SEAS KingRO4Y Mk II
Most on here are amateur enthusiasts and not professionals. It won't be financially viable to employ independent professionals for a one off DIY design. However, there are number of people that have business ventures that involve selling their own (usually) speaker designs who might be interested in working with you to add to their portfolio. If they like the configuration and have you as a guaranteed first customer you could be in luck. Most people involved in this type of activity are competent speaker designers with the odd exception.
An alternative is an enthusiastic amateur. Competence here is going to be variable (enthusiasm and competence are often inversely related) but there are certainly people with an interest as shown by threads on group designs. Writing the spec for a group design and asking for interest might be something to consider if you are happy for everything to be open.
An alternative is an enthusiastic amateur. Competence here is going to be variable (enthusiasm and competence are often inversely related) but there are certainly people with an interest as shown by threads on group designs. Writing the spec for a group design and asking for interest might be something to consider if you are happy for everything to be open.
There is a thread on here looking at the Tang Band w6-2313 coaxial in a box similar to the Kef LS50.
TB new line of Coax FR drivers
here is the Tang Band suggested enclosure for the W6-2313 which is discussed in the thread above - SUG2-25 - 6.5" 2 Way Coaxial Bookshelf Enclosure Suggestion - TB SPEAKER CO., LTD.
So, is your idea something like an LS50 on top of a BK Electronics Double Gem. (You could always buy these off the shelf and add a minidsp 2x4HD to sort out the crossover and do room EQ).
Double Gem
LS50 – KEF UK
if you were not fixed on a coaxial and have deep pockets then this may suit - ATS-4
As an alternative to the coaxial then you could also look at some of the full range speakers that can be uses as a WAW (or FAST), you may find some of these in the full range part of this forum or search Planet10 speakers.
TB new line of Coax FR drivers
here is the Tang Band suggested enclosure for the W6-2313 which is discussed in the thread above - SUG2-25 - 6.5" 2 Way Coaxial Bookshelf Enclosure Suggestion - TB SPEAKER CO., LTD.
So, is your idea something like an LS50 on top of a BK Electronics Double Gem. (You could always buy these off the shelf and add a minidsp 2x4HD to sort out the crossover and do room EQ).
Double Gem
LS50 – KEF UK
if you were not fixed on a coaxial and have deep pockets then this may suit - ATS-4
As an alternative to the coaxial then you could also look at some of the full range speakers that can be uses as a WAW (or FAST), you may find some of these in the full range part of this forum or search Planet10 speakers.
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There is much information in this forum that theoretically anyone with a little bit of a sense for these things, should be able on one's own to build such a loudspeaker. There is provisions for all the software needed, white paper on how to do what, the only real issue would probably be not wanting to spend some time gathering information. My guess is a single month of research should be enough to start executing. In the mean time, one can/should ask for advice to speed it up.
@ugg10 - Yes, Kef Ls50 on top of something similar to the double gem and the Tang Band W6-2313 is something I’ve looked into and am considering. I even considered buying a pair of KEF LS50s and adding something like the double gem to them, but I want a more fixed solution than this and want to limit the amount of excursion coming from the kefs to keep the midrange nice and accurate.
@andy19191 - Amateur enthusiast is fine as long as you have some software and have a better understanding of crossovers. For instance, if I go with the Tang Band I would need a high pass and a bandpass for the tweeter and midrange, then I would need a low pass for the two woofers. I would like the opportunity to bi-amp, so dual binding posts is a must. . I am also aiming to have a fairly warm sounding speaker, more of an old school sound with a bit of a bump in the bass, so should I be crossing over at 250hz, 500hz, 750hz? And will I need attentuation on any of the drivers to get a more flat response? I don’t know the answers to these questions. And although I have a good understanding of the crossovers and am an amateur audio engineer I don’t know how to build a crossover piece by piece. The cabinet is no problem for me, but I’d like to keep it simple.
@andy19191 - Amateur enthusiast is fine as long as you have some software and have a better understanding of crossovers. For instance, if I go with the Tang Band I would need a high pass and a bandpass for the tweeter and midrange, then I would need a low pass for the two woofers. I would like the opportunity to bi-amp, so dual binding posts is a must. . I am also aiming to have a fairly warm sounding speaker, more of an old school sound with a bit of a bump in the bass, so should I be crossing over at 250hz, 500hz, 750hz? And will I need attentuation on any of the drivers to get a more flat response? I don’t know the answers to these questions. And although I have a good understanding of the crossovers and am an amateur audio engineer I don’t know how to build a crossover piece by piece. The cabinet is no problem for me, but I’d like to keep it simple.
In all fairness, there is probably no need for you to design anything from scratch. The most I do is take a design from one of the DIY gurus and then change it to suit my own needs (which may involve some Xover redesign). p.s. Well, having said that, I do have one 3 way OB which is 100% home brewed just as a challenge for myself 
.
You should not get hung up on any preconceived notion about the speaker configuration but do research. Start with your room size, choice of music, coverage area, listening volume, available budget, available space, available amps, etc. and look for what the knowledgeable DIYers seem to concur on.
The coax is not worth the effort unless the space is restricted. The tweeter waveguide is not meant to move like the mid cone in a coax. Just look at the curves for Seas C18EN002. They hold promise for off axis dispersion (which is quite admirable), the rest is a nightmare to work with. Check out the complexity of the Minerva Xover in the link at this post:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/320222-coaxial-drivers-ultimate-speaker-3.html#post5379077
it explains why the coaxes will never get significant traction as commercial offerings. (btw I never heard that speaker but posted graphs look like they really did their homework).
p.s. in the same thread Bateman advocates for synergies as better than coaxes. I have not done either, and if I do some day I will tackle it only as an engineering challenge as what I have is hard to beat in my applications.
.You should not get hung up on any preconceived notion about the speaker configuration but do research. Start with your room size, choice of music, coverage area, listening volume, available budget, available space, available amps, etc. and look for what the knowledgeable DIYers seem to concur on.
The coax is not worth the effort unless the space is restricted. The tweeter waveguide is not meant to move like the mid cone in a coax. Just look at the curves for Seas C18EN002. They hold promise for off axis dispersion (which is quite admirable), the rest is a nightmare to work with. Check out the complexity of the Minerva Xover in the link at this post:
https://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/320222-coaxial-drivers-ultimate-speaker-3.html#post5379077
it explains why the coaxes will never get significant traction as commercial offerings. (btw I never heard that speaker but posted graphs look like they really did their homework).
p.s. in the same thread Bateman advocates for synergies as better than coaxes. I have not done either, and if I do some day I will tackle it only as an engineering challenge as what I have is hard to beat in my applications.
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I am interested in your project and how you get on but I was not volunteering for the design. My interest stems from currently being in the process of designing a speaker with a KEF coaxial midrange+tweeter and woofers in separate cabinets. Initially 8" drivers because I have them to hand but later after a bit of testing probably something else. I have no interest in passive crossovers which are awkward, expensive and inflexible but others seem to enjoy the challenge. I am also looking at wall or corner mounting rather than large speakers out in the room.
How to competently design a passive crossover requires some study but nothing major. It is also likely the design will be close but not quite right on the first attempt requiring a bit of measuring, listening, thinking and tweaking of component values. If you pay someone to run a bit of software for you this stage is likely to be lost.
Your best bet is to find an established and tested design {that is, one that others have built and like the sound of} that suits your purposes and build it. This question has been asked hundreds of times on all the forums and to date I have seen only 1 taker, and that person built the speaker and shipped it to the Xover designer. This is the only correct way to do it.
As I said, I have a very good idea of what I want to build. 6-1/2 coaxial in a sealed enclosure with 2 10inch woofers below it in a separate sealed enclosure.
All I really need is someone to give me some suggestions of drivers that perform well in sealed enclosures, then enter the specifications of those drivers into a computer program and give me a few viable options for crossover designs. Then I choose one of those designs after some chatting about the pros and cons and I run with it. Then that someone sends me a wiring diagram and shopping list for crossover components. Pretty simple stuff I thought. I don’t expect perfection. There are many people on this forum that have built many speakers and have a much better understanding of the mathematics and physics behind loudspeaker design than I do. I don’t understand all of the pessimism.
Maybe I should rephrase my post - “Hey, I’ll give you $50 to run some numbers for me and make a 30min phone call. Sound good?”
All I really need is someone to give me some suggestions of drivers that perform well in sealed enclosures, then enter the specifications of those drivers into a computer program and give me a few viable options for crossover designs. Then I choose one of those designs after some chatting about the pros and cons and I run with it. Then that someone sends me a wiring diagram and shopping list for crossover components. Pretty simple stuff I thought. I don’t expect perfection. There are many people on this forum that have built many speakers and have a much better understanding of the mathematics and physics behind loudspeaker design than I do. I don’t understand all of the pessimism.
Maybe I should rephrase my post - “Hey, I’ll give you $50 to run some numbers for me and make a 30min phone call. Sound good?”
and I already gave you a reference to a finished speaker using that size coax and a matched bass unit (an 8-3/4 woofer plus a 10inch passive radiator). I can tell you that John Marsh and the guy who posted the passive Xover must have spent A LOT of time to get that kind of measured performance. I personally do not think it is worth the effort as such level of performance will require a lot less work with dedicated non-coax drivers and result in a simpler Xover likely easier to drive by the amp. But if that is what you want, it looks like they have enough documentation to communicate the design to you in 30min. Good luck.
10000 hz legend
What 10" woofer do you plan to use?
--What crossover frequency?
--One per cabinet?
--Parallel electrical connection low impedance load to one amp?
--Separate amp per 10" ?
--What type of equalization? LinkwitzTransform boost? DSP with room equalization
For the 6" Tang Band W6-2313, one pair of 8" woofers like the SB_Acoustics SB23NACS45-8 should have enough sealed box SPL after active boost. Each 8" SB23NACS45-8 in 1.3cuft sealed cabinet has FSC ~ 49Hz with Qtc ~ 0.7 with SPL ~88db
What 10" woofer do you plan to use?
--What crossover frequency?
--One per cabinet?
--Parallel electrical connection low impedance load to one amp?
--Separate amp per 10" ?
--What type of equalization? LinkwitzTransform boost? DSP with room equalization
For the 6" Tang Band W6-2313, one pair of 8" woofers like the SB_Acoustics SB23NACS45-8 should have enough sealed box SPL after active boost. Each 8" SB23NACS45-8 in 1.3cuft sealed cabinet has FSC ~ 49Hz with Qtc ~ 0.7 with SPL ~88db
Line Source -
I was looking at the Dayton Audio Designer Series 10” woofer, but as I mentioned I am open to suggestions. I am not sure about the crossover frequency either. I certainly want to limit excursion for the midrange, and I also want a nice warm punch and/or bump in the 70-100hz area.
I would like to wire the two woofers together in a shared enclosure.. If I go with the daytons I would run them parallel at 4ohms to the amp, unless this presents some other problems for the coaxial as far as spl. I don’t know if I’ll end up needing attenuation anywhere. I will not be using any EQ software. These will be stand alone loudspeakers with passive crossovers. I will likely boost the 20-40hz area when listening through my PC, but otherwise they will run flat out.
I was looking at the Dayton Audio Designer Series 10” woofer, but as I mentioned I am open to suggestions. I am not sure about the crossover frequency either. I certainly want to limit excursion for the midrange, and I also want a nice warm punch and/or bump in the 70-100hz area.
I would like to wire the two woofers together in a shared enclosure.. If I go with the daytons I would run them parallel at 4ohms to the amp, unless this presents some other problems for the coaxial as far as spl. I don’t know if I’ll end up needing attenuation anywhere. I will not be using any EQ software. These will be stand alone loudspeakers with passive crossovers. I will likely boost the 20-40hz area when listening through my PC, but otherwise they will run flat out.
Alright... So if I go with the Tang Band W6-2313 in a small sealed enclosure and the Dayton Audio Designer Series 10” Woofers (2) in a separate, shared, sealed enclosure; what would be some suggested enclosure sizes and crossover points?
Again, this is a stand alone speaker, no DSP digital EQ. Just passive crossover components.
Again, this is a stand alone speaker, no DSP digital EQ. Just passive crossover components.
The knowledge is required either way. Ie you just make it easier to make the same mistakes. That 'little bit of software' is highly dependent on the design being competent to begin with, before a crossover has even been considered.
Ok, so I’ll go with a 2.56 cubic ft enclosure for the woofers. What about the Tang Band W6-2313? I was thinking a small sealed enclosure, small enough to get me a high F3 and limit the excursion of the midrange. I don’t know how high I could get the F3, but I was thinking around 120hz. Would it be worth adding an additional high pass around 60-80hz just to give the midrange some more control and less excursion? I really want to limit cone movement.
Somewhere someone said that a crossover had been designed for the Tang Band W6-2313, but I obviously don’t think that design included a high pass for woofer integration. So what would be a good place to crossover to the two 10” woofers, and what is the best crossover frequency for the midrange and tweeter?
Somewhere someone said that a crossover had been designed for the Tang Band W6-2313, but I obviously don’t think that design included a high pass for woofer integration. So what would be a good place to crossover to the two 10” woofers, and what is the best crossover frequency for the midrange and tweeter?
You may already know this and forgive me if so, but at the risk of stating the obvious; a well-designed crossover is not as simple as choosing a frequency and inputting it into a calculator.
You need to measure the drive units in a baffle of the intended dimensions, or at the very least model their respective responses in the baffle using IEC baffle measurements. Then these measurements can be brought into crossover design CAD software and a crossover developed.
You need to measure the drive units in a baffle of the intended dimensions, or at the very least model their respective responses in the baffle using IEC baffle measurements. Then these measurements can be brought into crossover design CAD software and a crossover developed.
And what we are saying is you have an over-simplified view of what it takes to design a crossover. You do not plug some numbers into a computer program and it spits out a Xover schematic. Designing a Xover can easily take over 100 hours of work and no one is going to do that for you. This is called DIYourself
Now if you want to play around with Simulations then we can point you to the right direction. Outside of that then you need to look at established designs if you care at all about sound quality.I suspect 2 x DS270-8 in parallel and 1 x TBW6-2313 are pushing the limits of SPL compatability.*
Sensitivity of the woofers sits at about 90dB in the region you will use them. Add 6dB when you put 2 of them in parallel, so now you're at 96dB. Larger woofers and wider baffles tend to need a little less baffle step compensation plus this can depend on how far you place them from the walls and floor. But ignoring that for the moment, you'll lose 6dB with full baffle step compensation, so woofer sensitivity is back down to about 90dB.
Sensitivity for the TB coaxial though is only 87dB though you'll likely gain about 1 to 2dB through the baffle step peak and the effects of xo summation in the midrange, so maybe about 89dB. Which isn't too bad if you want a warm sounding speaker.
But.... you'll have absolutely no wiggle room in the mids if you need less than the full 6dB of baffle step compensation on the woofers. I've found that flexibility in design to be extremely important.
Since you won't be using eq, I'd also be looking for woofers with an F3 closer to 40Hz in a sealed box. Maybe push the Qtc up closer to .8 instead of .707 to get a little boost in your desired 70-100Hz range.
Maybe look at these woofers instead:
Peerless SLS 10"
Dayton RS270-8
For what you're after, I'd also be looking at this coaxial:
SB 6.5" coaxial
Notice the higher sensitivity, the much more open frame for the backwave and the large difference in Sd, the piston area.
I also don't recommend a small enclosure for the mid - it doesn't help much for absorbing the backwave leading to less clarity and more congestion. I prefer to oversize it and to add in the appropriate kinds of insulation to absorb the given frequency range.
* Technically speaking, if you are biamping, sensitivity compatibility is not actually strictly required between the woofers and the coaxial, but you'll never be able to run the speakers on just 1 amp. Not a good idea in my mind.
Sensitivity of the woofers sits at about 90dB in the region you will use them. Add 6dB when you put 2 of them in parallel, so now you're at 96dB. Larger woofers and wider baffles tend to need a little less baffle step compensation plus this can depend on how far you place them from the walls and floor. But ignoring that for the moment, you'll lose 6dB with full baffle step compensation, so woofer sensitivity is back down to about 90dB.
Sensitivity for the TB coaxial though is only 87dB though you'll likely gain about 1 to 2dB through the baffle step peak and the effects of xo summation in the midrange, so maybe about 89dB. Which isn't too bad if you want a warm sounding speaker.
But.... you'll have absolutely no wiggle room in the mids if you need less than the full 6dB of baffle step compensation on the woofers. I've found that flexibility in design to be extremely important.
Since you won't be using eq, I'd also be looking for woofers with an F3 closer to 40Hz in a sealed box. Maybe push the Qtc up closer to .8 instead of .707 to get a little boost in your desired 70-100Hz range.
Maybe look at these woofers instead:
Peerless SLS 10"
Dayton RS270-8
For what you're after, I'd also be looking at this coaxial:
SB 6.5" coaxial
Notice the higher sensitivity, the much more open frame for the backwave and the large difference in Sd, the piston area.
I also don't recommend a small enclosure for the mid - it doesn't help much for absorbing the backwave leading to less clarity and more congestion. I prefer to oversize it and to add in the appropriate kinds of insulation to absorb the given frequency range.
* Technically speaking, if you are biamping, sensitivity compatibility is not actually strictly required between the woofers and the coaxial, but you'll never be able to run the speakers on just 1 amp. Not a good idea in my mind.
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