2 way bookshelf suggestions

[its bh]

Hey all

After trolling through these forums for a while now and it's come time to take the first step and build my first pair of speakers. For a couple of reasons, I'm thinking a pair of 2 way bookshelves:
- we live in a townhouse; the room isn't massive and the listening depth is relatively shallow with listening position approx 3-4m.
- the build cost and complexity is slightly more manageable than a 3 way

I'd like to attempt keep the cost around $500-600 AUD for drivers and XO's. I don't mind purchasing bare bits and constructing everything so I don't need them pre-assembled. Curt/Jim Holtz Finalist Monitors look good; so do Zaph's SR71 (though not sure I'd land the drivers/XO's for that cost). I see Jeff Bagby's designs discussed a little but for the life of me can't find plots for them. Can someone point me in the right direction?

And finally, are there any other recommendations that I'm missing?

Thanks heaps for your help
Cheers
Brenton

 

[PeteMcK]

SB are some of the best value drivers in Aus at the mo, have a look at this kit:
SB Acoustics :: Eka Kit
Available from 'Loudspeaker Kit' or Wagner, which is the same thing....
good Xover parts from Speakerbug

 

[LineSource]

Skim over the diyAudio thread on the Kalasan monitor using the Satori MW16P midbass and modest cost SB29RDC dome tweeter in place of the expensive Satori TW29R dome tweeter.
====
World Expert Joachim Gerhard created the Kalasan as an open design for SB-Acoustics Satori drivers. The $52 SB29RDC-4 tweeter measures almost identical to the $132 Satori TW29R-4 tweeter used in Kalasan.
=====
SB Acoustics Satori Monitor - diyAudio

Joachim Gerhard final Satori Kalasan crossover 5.0 circuits from the Kalasan diyAudio thread. # 700
--SB Acoustics Satori Monitor
measurements post# 699
crossover circuits post# 700
photos post# 801 762 746

There are two common 15-liter cabinets with slanted baffles for time and phase alignment: box with 6-degree slanted baffle; pyramid shape with slanted baffle.
===========================

My desk speakers use the 7" Satori MW19-4 midbass with the 1.1" SB29RDC-4 tweeter using a LR4/LR4 1650Hz crossover. Very natural vocals.

 

[dotneck335]

Bi-amped LX Minis:
LXmini Linkwitz Lab Speaker Kit, PAIR: Madisound Speaker Components
My friend has these and I think it's the best small speaker system I've heard.

 

[rabbitz]

I wouldn't be concerned about Jeff Bagby's designs or lack of FR plots as his designs are first class. Even though I design and build my own I have tried two of his speaker designs as I had the drivers here, the Soprano and Tribute which are well documented. I ended up keeping the Soprano as it's found a nice use. You can probably find more about Jeff's designs at the Techtalk (Parts Express forum).

A good place to look at designs is Troelsgravesen's site but later designs do not have crossover values.
DIY-Loudspeakers

For bang for buck it's hard to go past any good designs that use SB Acoustics drivers. Some of my favourite combinations I've used are:
SB26ADC-C000-4 + SB17NAC35-8
SB26STAC-C000-4 + SB17MFC35-8 (also used in the Tributes)
SB29RDAC-C000-4 + MW16P-8
SB21RDC-C000-4 + SB15MFC30-8
SB26STCN-C000-4 + SB12NRX25-4 (as used in the Soprano)
plus plenty of others that are used with different brand tweeters or midwoofers.

There are heaps of other combinations out there but these are the ones that's I have used for designs and have found SB Acoustics drivers to be excellent in build and sonics and in most cases, easy to work with.

 

[its bh]

Hi all

Thanks very much for your recommendations. After having a bit of a look, the SBA drivers punch well above their weight for the price!

I've heard (or read) excellent things about the Troels speakers, and appreciate his focus on time alignment but given the need to have wife input re: design, I'd like to explore designs to resolve the obvious baffle step. Flipping the tweeter below the woofer isn't appealing, so slanted baffle might be an option. Still, no point building a speaker if the sound reproduction is compromised by the cabinet aesthetics I suppose.

The Eka looks great but the Ara look really impressive (though well above my budget).

Rabbitz, thanks for the pointer to the PE forum for Bagby discussion. Did you design the XO's for the combos above or are these from other creations on the forums?

 

[rabbitz]

All those are my designs and xo's except for JB's Soprano.

 

[picowallspeaker]

I'd like to explore designs to resolve the obvious baffle step. Flipping the tweeter below the woofer isn't appealing, so slanted baffle might be an option. Still, no point building a speaker if the sound reproduction is compromised by the cabinet aesthetics I suppose.

Why "tweeter below" is no good?

 

[its bh]

@picowallspeaker.. Purely aesthetics, unfortunately :|

@rabbitz - I'm mindful plots only get you so far, and when I compare the MW16P-8 and the SB17NAC35-8, the curves look extremely similar. To the point, that apart from a few small notches, the plots look almost identical. I can only assume the cone construction and materials influence the sound. In your experience, have you found this to be the case?

Thanks again for everyone's input. I really appreciate it

 

[rabbitz]

The MW16P-8 digs up a little more detail IMO, a tad smoother and is easier to work with as you don't have the metal break up but the SB17NAC is no slouch and it's not hard to control the break up around 7kHz plus mine are designed for off axis. In fact I use it in my main speakers which replaced a speaker that used a Scan Speak 18W8531G00 as a mid driver. I never thought I would be able to use a metal midwoofer with the crossovers I use but these SB Acoustics NAC are special with great sonics.

Have a look at Troels SB-61 series on different cone material on midwoofers in the same design and same tweeter.
SBAcoustics-61-NAC

Driver FR plots, cone material etc are only a small part of the story and it's the crossover that rules. Usually paper is a good all rounder, polypropylene is usually smooth with little break up and metal can have better detail and control but can have break up issues. Takes your pick but it's up to the designer to get the best out of whatever the cone material is.

I don't look for any particular material but I do model it in a crossover before making a choice.

 

[its bh]

Thanks Rabbitz. I have seen that post by Troels but I wasn't familiar with the form of graph and what the plots meant. I'll go digging to learn a bit more.

Historically, I haven't been a huge fan of metal drivers, either tweeter or woofer (particularly the former), as to me, they sound a little brash. I have a relatively wide range of music I listen to, so detail is particularly important to me.. For the sake of a ~$200 more, it sounds worth it.

So I'm leaning toward pairing the MW16P-8 with SB29RDAC-C000-4. Because this is my first design, I'd prefer not to have the risk of designing my own LR XO. Rabbitz, did you post your construction anywhere using these drivers? If you constructed these for a commercial build, no stress if you don't feel comfortable passing out the design

 

[dotneck335]

The best thing you can do is BI-AMP!!!!!:
BiAmp (Bi-Amplification - Not Quite Magic, But Close) - Part 1

 

[rabbitz]

So I'm leaning toward pairing the MW16P-8 with SB29RDAC-C000-4. Because this is my first design, I'd prefer not to have the risk of designing my own LR XO. Rabbitz, did you post your construction anywhere using these drivers?

I no longer post any of my designs. I think LineSource posted something on this combination a few times. There are plenty of designs around and for what it's worth, SB29RDAC is the same as SB29RDC. It just has an aluminium faceplate.

Jeff Bagby's Kairos are similar but use the higher grade Satori tweeter. Maybe you can buy the crossover details and parts from Meniscus Audio. I don't know what their policy is.
Kairos Bare Bones Kit (Pair) - Meniscus Audio

 

[its bh]

The best thing you can do is BI-AMP!!!!!:
BiAmp (Bi-Amplification - Not Quite Magic, But Close) - Part 1

Thanks! I've read a bit about bi-amping.. Never averse to reading another

 

[its bh]

I no longer post any of my designs. I think LineSource posted something on this combination a few times. There are plenty of designs around and for what it's worth, SB29RDAC is the same as SB29RDC. It just has an aluminium faceplate.

Jeff Bagby's Kairos are similar but use the higher grade Satori tweeter. Maybe you can buy the crossover details and parts from Meniscus Audio. I don't know what their policy is.
Kairos Bare Bones Kit (Pair) - Meniscus Audio

Thanks Rabbitz. I've found a couple posts that use the MW16P and the Satori tweeter. At this stage still looking to find one using this exact driver pair. I have seen one post saying the MW19P and 16P cross at the same point when paired with the SB29R. Which I suppose makes sense given the similar plots between 1500 and 2500Hz. Anyways, I'll keep searching

 

[jorgovanko]

Check this: JurKo :: Pkaudio