Hi Brian, can you post freq measurements. I recall they were very flat. And did you change things since the time you measured them at M. Kravczenko place, that was some 2 years ago.
I think Toid is all over your spkrs.
Would you change things if you were to make them again, say drivers placement on the baffle, or different drivers.
BTW, those underhunged alu 7" from Mark - very nice but to make 2way they need at least 1-1.5kHz x-o, or 3way your style, so we are kind on hold. I would like try them with Mark's big ribbon.
I think Toid is all over your spkrs.
Would you change things if you were to make them again, say drivers placement on the baffle, or different drivers.
BTW, those underhunged alu 7" from Mark - very nice but to make 2way they need at least 1-1.5kHz x-o, or 3way your style, so we are kind on hold. I would like try them with Mark's big ribbon.
I just updated them!
Here's an old measurement in 20 degree intervals. Click on the picture for a much bigger graph. Outdoor ground plane measurements <900Hz. Quasi anechoic with 10ms gating above that. No smoothing is used (or needed) on the measurements.
A lot has changed over the 2 years I probably can't even count. Each of them make the speaker a little better, but the cumulative change makes a big difference.
I would change them completely if I were to do them again, almost every aspect of the design. I have a much better understanding of speaker design now, and there are so many little (and big) things that can be improved to the speaker.
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Would you care to share your ideas for changes?
I have enjoyed this thread, and the original.
I have been thinking of using your design for a fully portable (battery powered) mono Bluetooth system.
Mine would be simpler than your "ultimate" version. Bluetooth > MiniDSP > three or four channels of mono amplification > your same drivers (except non-beryllium version of tweeter)
Wow, that is stinking flat. For some reason I also prefer a little boost in 1-3k area, maybe because I use LR4 at 2k and it compensates for power response dip a little. Anyway, makes the vocal much nicer and easier to follow lyrics. I guess a lot depends on the drivers and x-o used. Devialet - that thing with two plastic subs on the sides and coax mid-tweeter - I wasn't really impressed by it, considering the amount of money they put into it for R&D, kind of like the Ottawa's LRT.
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I am thinking of building an even smaller box w/ a small driver from SEAS using active DSP:
Seas Prestige L12RE/XFC (H1602) 5" Alum/Fabric Coaxial
This driver is recommended to 60 Hz but drops off quite a bit before that. I tuned the box to 63 Hz. Wondering give the TS parameters of this driver and the tuning I mention how you would approach sqeezing as much distortion-free bass at normal listening levels for me, which are like 70-80 dB at 10 ft or so listening position.
Love your project, hope I can learn from you how to make these little drivers into bass monsters.
Seas Prestige L12RE/XFC (H1602) 5" Alum/Fabric Coaxial
This driver is recommended to 60 Hz but drops off quite a bit before that. I tuned the box to 63 Hz. Wondering give the TS parameters of this driver and the tuning I mention how you would approach sqeezing as much distortion-free bass at normal listening levels for me, which are like 70-80 dB at 10 ft or so listening position.
Love your project, hope I can learn from you how to make these little drivers into bass monsters.
Hi jtatknox, thanks for enjoying my build.
Unfortunately trying to get bass out of coaxials is a very bad idea because on a coaxial because a moving cone on a coaxial will severely modulate and distort the tweeter, which depends on the woofer's cone as a waveguide that doesn't move. You cannot get 70-80dB of volume at 10 ft out of sealed coaxials without severe distortion.
You will need to add a woofer to that coaxial, or go a traditional 2 way if you want to EQ the woofer for more bass.
Unfortunately trying to get bass out of coaxials is a very bad idea because on a coaxial because a moving cone on a coaxial will severely modulate and distort the tweeter, which depends on the woofer's cone as a waveguide that doesn't move. You cannot get 70-80dB of volume at 10 ft out of sealed coaxials without severe distortion.
You will need to add a woofer to that coaxial, or go a traditional 2 way if you want to EQ the woofer for more bass.
Hi Brian, great design, ran across because of Toids site. I really like to build but have no background on builds.
Can you give advise on what you would use today? update your original lists for today’s products? DSP settings, and box size? The scan-speaks tend to be a little higher than I like to spend.
“your original list” Reference Mini
4 driver, 4 amplifier, linear phase, time aligned, DSP controlled directivity *small* speaker
Frequency response: 33Hz-20000Hz, +/- 1dB
Internal volume: 3.5L, 0.13 cu ft.(Yes, there is no air inside ��)
Dimensions: 6.25" x 12" x 7.5" HWD.
Driver selection
Tweeter: Scan-Speak Illuminator beryllium D3004-604010
Midrange: Scan-Speak Discovery 10F-4424G
Woofer: 2x Wavecor WF152BD05
Passive Radiator: 2x Tang Band PR14, tuned at 35Hz
Amplifier: 2x ICEpower ICEedge 100AS2, 2x100W per amp
Audio interface: Asus Xonar U7
Can you give advise on what you would use today? update your original lists for today’s products? DSP settings, and box size? The scan-speaks tend to be a little higher than I like to spend.
“your original list” Reference Mini
4 driver, 4 amplifier, linear phase, time aligned, DSP controlled directivity *small* speaker
Frequency response: 33Hz-20000Hz, +/- 1dB
Internal volume: 3.5L, 0.13 cu ft.(Yes, there is no air inside ��)
Dimensions: 6.25" x 12" x 7.5" HWD.
Driver selection
Tweeter: Scan-Speak Illuminator beryllium D3004-604010
Midrange: Scan-Speak Discovery 10F-4424G
Woofer: 2x Wavecor WF152BD05
Passive Radiator: 2x Tang Band PR14, tuned at 35Hz
Amplifier: 2x ICEpower ICEedge 100AS2, 2x100W per amp
Audio interface: Asus Xonar U7
Sorry for the brevity. The answer isn't quite what you're looking for, but it would be a completely different design, with much more expensive components. Even if it was the same design, I should have used the Scanspeak 15WU as the woofers instead of the Wavecor's and ditch the PR's for a sealed box.
Sorry, I've been incredibly busy and I haven't had time to write updates. Maybe one day when I get time I'll update.
Hello Mr. bcodemz,
I've got quite a few questions, so I'm gonna break them up into a few points of view.
My job is ships crew aboard deep sea going vessels and I always have to fly to get to the ship. As such, my needs are much different. Things need to be much smaller and lighter. But still, this is just too cool for school!
Point of view #1: "I want to use some of this tech in my unrelated build!"
1: The main thing I noticed is you have some additional hardware to make the ICEpower modules play nice with low voltage audio sources. Is there any way I could get ahold of those details? I'd Happily buy those ciruits by the dozen if it would make it worth your while. I can assemble stuff like that, but designing it is out of the question...I'm just not that bright. I feel like this knowedge could be used to better almost any application of ICEpower modules.
Point of view #2: "I want to understaaaaaand!...."
1: So the drivers are close together so as to behave like a point source, got it. Adding a waveguide would inevitably increase CTC distance, but would the WG negate those lobing problems at all? ARE ALL 2-WAYS A BAD IDEA? Pardon my lack of speaker design knowlege...
2: Assuming a WG is just a bad idea for a moment, Putting all the drivers in a line would increase front baffle size (and I don't think you could shrink any other dimension, I'm not sure), But there would be some free area up front for big roundovers or bevel cuts. would that help with diffraction enough to be worthwhile?
3: What exactly is that rear woofer doing? I don't think you'd have bothered with a fourth amp channel if it was just more sound output...maybe 3.5-way?
Point of view #3: "The Reference Minis are clearly beyond my understanding, but I still want a set"
1: Documenting all the details of this build in a way that would allow other to recreate it would be a huge task. I wouldn't suppose you would do such a thing? I'd definitely pay for the trouble of documenting the whole works!
2: I'm pretty sure the answer to the above question is 'heck noooo!' but if I don't ask, the answer is always no.
As a side note, I'm currently on a ship right now and as such I might not be able to respond for a month or more. Please bear with me. I'm not intentionally ignoring anyone.
I've got quite a few questions, so I'm gonna break them up into a few points of view.
My job is ships crew aboard deep sea going vessels and I always have to fly to get to the ship. As such, my needs are much different. Things need to be much smaller and lighter. But still, this is just too cool for school!
Point of view #1: "I want to use some of this tech in my unrelated build!"
1: The main thing I noticed is you have some additional hardware to make the ICEpower modules play nice with low voltage audio sources. Is there any way I could get ahold of those details? I'd Happily buy those ciruits by the dozen if it would make it worth your while. I can assemble stuff like that, but designing it is out of the question...I'm just not that bright. I feel like this knowedge could be used to better almost any application of ICEpower modules.
Point of view #2: "I want to understaaaaaand!...."
1: So the drivers are close together so as to behave like a point source, got it. Adding a waveguide would inevitably increase CTC distance, but would the WG negate those lobing problems at all? ARE ALL 2-WAYS A BAD IDEA? Pardon my lack of speaker design knowlege...
2: Assuming a WG is just a bad idea for a moment, Putting all the drivers in a line would increase front baffle size (and I don't think you could shrink any other dimension, I'm not sure), But there would be some free area up front for big roundovers or bevel cuts. would that help with diffraction enough to be worthwhile?
3: What exactly is that rear woofer doing? I don't think you'd have bothered with a fourth amp channel if it was just more sound output...maybe 3.5-way?
Point of view #3: "The Reference Minis are clearly beyond my understanding, but I still want a set"
1: Documenting all the details of this build in a way that would allow other to recreate it would be a huge task. I wouldn't suppose you would do such a thing? I'd definitely pay for the trouble of documenting the whole works!
2: I'm pretty sure the answer to the above question is 'heck noooo!' but if I don't ask, the answer is always no.
As a side note, I'm currently on a ship right now and as such I might not be able to respond for a month or more. Please bear with me. I'm not intentionally ignoring anyone.
Generally speaking it might, if you can lower the crossover frequency.. however some would accept the greater spacing and find a way to make it work in order to keep a waveguide.
Darn, I wonder how small of a WG you could get away with and still manage diffraction issues? Even a small oval WG would bump up the CtC distance between tweeter & mid and require an even lower XO...
Or maybe just go with some round overs at baffle edges.
Anybody remember Thiel Loudspeakers?
Or maybe just go with some round overs at baffle edges.
Anybody remember Thiel Loudspeakers?
Attachments
A word on using oval for that purpose..
https://www.diyaudio.com/community/threads/is-it-best-to-use-a-non-axisymmetric-waveguide.375799/