Being a fan of complex music with "a lot going on", such as modern metal, I've always struggled to find speakers that doesn't end up sounding muddy.
Best I've heard in terms of being able to differentiate all the instruments cleanly, was a pair of System Audio towers with multiple small size drivers.
The problem with these however was the lack of dynamics. I really like the liveliness of high efficiency speakers, and being able to crank it up without them breaking a sweat.
And System Audio doesn't cut it here.
So what makes a speaker sound muddy or not muddy?
Narrow dispersion with less room reflections?
Clean CSD?
Low odd-order distortion?
Low THD?
Imaging?
Crossing over/below the critical region?
Well integrated drivers with shallow slopes?
Best I've heard in terms of being able to differentiate all the instruments cleanly, was a pair of System Audio towers with multiple small size drivers.
The problem with these however was the lack of dynamics. I really like the liveliness of high efficiency speakers, and being able to crank it up without them breaking a sweat.
And System Audio doesn't cut it here.
So what makes a speaker sound muddy or not muddy?
Narrow dispersion with less room reflections?
Clean CSD?
Low odd-order distortion?
Low THD?
Imaging?
Crossing over/below the critical region?
Well integrated drivers with shallow slopes?
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All manner of reasons can aggravate it, but 'fullness'/'mud' is concentrated in the ~300-440 Hz BW with the 'warmth' and 'honk' BWs bracketing it, so ideally need to be 'crystal clear' with flat amplitude and phase response from ~150-900 Hz with no excessive [mid] bass to tonally tilt/shift it, i.e. getting the room to play 'nice'.
GM
edit: the chart I use is the current version [with minor 'naming' update] Altec gave me in the early '60s and supposedly began with a much narrower BW way back at the beginning of cinema/PA sound: https://i.imgur.com/ojR5p1v.jpg
GM
edit: the chart I use is the current version [with minor 'naming' update] Altec gave me in the early '60s and supposedly began with a much narrower BW way back at the beginning of cinema/PA sound: https://i.imgur.com/ojR5p1v.jpg
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Judging by what your preferences are,
I would say overdriving speakers they just fall apart it’s alright thinking a pair of speakers rated at 2-300 watt are going to be great but like you say efficiency / sensitivity rules 80db @1 meter vs 99db @1 meter are worlds apart in dynamics
a lot has to be said about horns/waveguides and 12”/15” drivers but some think they are not hifi
I would say overdriving speakers they just fall apart it’s alright thinking a pair of speakers rated at 2-300 watt are going to be great but like you say efficiency / sensitivity rules 80db @1 meter vs 99db @1 meter are worlds apart in dynamics
a lot has to be said about horns/waveguides and 12”/15” drivers but some think they are not hifi
Headroom. To avoid muddy sound, you need a system that is operating comfortably at your chosen volume levels.
I posted this on another thread, but I think it's worth repeating here. Someone said that high-sensitivity speakers always sound better than low-sensitivity. My response below:
I think I see where you're coming from. However, I have a few examples which (IMO) put things into perspective. For all of these examples, the amplifier power was adequate - I often use PA amplifiers which will put out a couple of kilowatts on each channel. Amplifier clipping does not happen here!
Example 1:
- 2-way speaker with a 4" midbass and a 0.75" tweeter, low-80s @1w. The frequency response measured reasonably flat (and reached 40Hz in-room), and at lower levels they sounded pretty good. If you turned it up, the dynamics disappeared as the drivers became overloaded - they couldn't move enough air to produce satisfying performance.
Example 2:
- My PA system, in the living room. 1x 18Sound ND1460, 2x Faital Pro 10FH520, 1x Faital Pro 15HP1060, per side - above 100Hz, sensitivity is >100dB@1w. Again, flat response. At lower levels, they sounded fine. However, the difference was that you could raise the volume and the speakers would stay linear until it was loud enough to drive you out of the room. All the dynamics were retained.
Example 3:
- The speakers I've settled on. 8" 2-way, with a compression driver. They're probably in the mid-80s @1w. So, not very different to Example 1. However, these speakers still get loud enough to feel the kick and snare drums. You have to put some power in there, but that's okay - they're good drivers which can take it.
My conclusion is this: often, high-sensitivity speakers are being driven to a fraction of their capability, so they still have lots of headroom left and the sound will follow - the speakers will sound relaxed and have plenty of dynamics. Low-sensitivity speakers are more likely to be driven closer to their limits, which means they will suffer accordingly. A good low-sensitivity speaker will comfortably take the extra power that's needed to produce the desired SPLs.
Chris
I posted this on another thread, but I think it's worth repeating here. Someone said that high-sensitivity speakers always sound better than low-sensitivity. My response below:
I think I see where you're coming from. However, I have a few examples which (IMO) put things into perspective. For all of these examples, the amplifier power was adequate - I often use PA amplifiers which will put out a couple of kilowatts on each channel. Amplifier clipping does not happen here!
Example 1:
- 2-way speaker with a 4" midbass and a 0.75" tweeter, low-80s @1w. The frequency response measured reasonably flat (and reached 40Hz in-room), and at lower levels they sounded pretty good. If you turned it up, the dynamics disappeared as the drivers became overloaded - they couldn't move enough air to produce satisfying performance.
Example 2:
- My PA system, in the living room. 1x 18Sound ND1460, 2x Faital Pro 10FH520, 1x Faital Pro 15HP1060, per side - above 100Hz, sensitivity is >100dB@1w. Again, flat response. At lower levels, they sounded fine. However, the difference was that you could raise the volume and the speakers would stay linear until it was loud enough to drive you out of the room. All the dynamics were retained.
Example 3:
- The speakers I've settled on. 8" 2-way, with a compression driver. They're probably in the mid-80s @1w. So, not very different to Example 1. However, these speakers still get loud enough to feel the kick and snare drums. You have to put some power in there, but that's okay - they're good drivers which can take it.
My conclusion is this: often, high-sensitivity speakers are being driven to a fraction of their capability, so they still have lots of headroom left and the sound will follow - the speakers will sound relaxed and have plenty of dynamics. Low-sensitivity speakers are more likely to be driven closer to their limits, which means they will suffer accordingly. A good low-sensitivity speaker will comfortably take the extra power that's needed to produce the desired SPLs.
Chris
If the membrane has to make big excursions, you get intermodulation, which is very bad for details. The next thing is dynamic. Increasing the power often leads to compression, reducing the peaks, everything becomes a mud-puddle. Having more ways helps on both since ie. on a 3-way the bass got a much less influence on the midrange since that is reproduced by a mid speaker where a 2-way already struggles.
What speakers do you have? To get more dynamic headroom, the first thing you should do is to implement a lowcut (subsonic), that removes the low frequencies your speaker can't reproduce but lead to huge excursions which lead much too soon to the effects described above and be considerate on the EQ, especally on the lowest end.
If you want to build a potent speaker, get bigger drivers since they do a lot less excursion as smaller ones.
What speakers do you have? To get more dynamic headroom, the first thing you should do is to implement a lowcut (subsonic), that removes the low frequencies your speaker can't reproduce but lead to huge excursions which lead much too soon to the effects described above and be considerate on the EQ, especally on the lowest end.
If you want to build a potent speaker, get bigger drivers since they do a lot less excursion as smaller ones.
Thanks for all the responses!
I've had plenty of high efficiency speakers, and even tho they retain their dynamics, they've all been muddy in the woofer -> midrange transition.
Speakers I've had:
- System Audio SA 1550 (clean, but lacked dynamics)
- Klipsch RF82 (dynamic, but muddy bass/midrange transition)
- Various 2-way high efficiency builds with compression drivers in horns (same issue as above)
- Klipsch Stadium (samme issue as above)
- DIY Sound Group Volt-10 (missing midrange presence)
Not sure intermodulation distortion is the issue here, since all of these HE drivers I've had move very little for home output levels.
I have a feeling room impact and crossovers in the 1-2 khz area might be the culprits.
Or maybe the driver CSD's haven’t been clean? This should directly translate to muddiness no?
I've had plenty of high efficiency speakers, and even tho they retain their dynamics, they've all been muddy in the woofer -> midrange transition.
Speakers I've had:
- System Audio SA 1550 (clean, but lacked dynamics)
- Klipsch RF82 (dynamic, but muddy bass/midrange transition)
- Various 2-way high efficiency builds with compression drivers in horns (same issue as above)
- Klipsch Stadium (samme issue as above)
- DIY Sound Group Volt-10 (missing midrange presence)
Not sure intermodulation distortion is the issue here, since all of these HE drivers I've had move very little for home output levels.
I have a feeling room impact and crossovers in the 1-2 khz area might be the culprits.
Or maybe the driver CSD's haven’t been clean? This should directly translate to muddiness no?
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Have you measured any clarity parameters, for example STI with ARTA? OctTI values are quite good information about acoustic resolution.
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I personally think there is more to it than just the speakers. Dense music I suspect can also wreak havoc on electronics as well. A less capable DAC or amplifier may start to fall apart with very dense music, especially if the dynamic range has been compressed greatly (loudness wars).
In my case changing from a 2nd order crossover (with questionable phase matching) to a 4th order crossover with good phase matching everything else the same) made a huge improvement (though still not completely fixed) with dense music. I wouldn't call what it fixed as muddy, more just a mess of sound/distortion. The sort of sound where you just can't bare to listen and have to turn it down or off.
Tony.
In my case changing from a 2nd order crossover (with questionable phase matching) to a 4th order crossover with good phase matching everything else the same) made a huge improvement (though still not completely fixed) with dense music. I wouldn't call what it fixed as muddy, more just a mess of sound/distortion. The sort of sound where you just can't bare to listen and have to turn it down or off.
Tony.
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There could be a number of causes for muddy sound. You say you like to listen to modern metal. Are you talking about the progressive European metal with the double base drum going a thousand MPH while the "singer" pukes in the microphone?
If that's the case it might be partially the fact that once the whole band is playing that the recording has lost all it's head room and without compression the recording is going to be saturated. Then you have the double base drum beat that seams to be in every song so they mic it with its own track, turn it up load and put it out in front. The problem with that is it is in the frequency band where the break up is. You can always use an EQ to attenuate the 300 to 500 Hz range and see if that helps.
If it where me I wouldn't be satisfied with any 2 way speaker trying to play metal at 110db. I'd be using 3 to 4 way speakers with 4th order xo's with mica or poly prop drivers in a sealed cabinet. 3 way and a sub or 4 way with large woofer and a passive radiator maybe. To me mica or poly sound better at reproducing music with a lot of heavy guitar work that is supposed to be played back at 11.
Many store bought speakers even from name brands will try and cut corners by using very run of the mill Xo's that have had very little, if any attention paid in taming rising impedance's or making sure that the components will still be doing what they are supposed to be doing once the volume knob gets cranked up. A zobal network or an LCR might fix the problem.
Then it might be that the speakers are just plain junk that can't be played at 11.
If that's the case it might be partially the fact that once the whole band is playing that the recording has lost all it's head room and without compression the recording is going to be saturated. Then you have the double base drum beat that seams to be in every song so they mic it with its own track, turn it up load and put it out in front. The problem with that is it is in the frequency band where the break up is. You can always use an EQ to attenuate the 300 to 500 Hz range and see if that helps.
If it where me I wouldn't be satisfied with any 2 way speaker trying to play metal at 110db. I'd be using 3 to 4 way speakers with 4th order xo's with mica or poly prop drivers in a sealed cabinet. 3 way and a sub or 4 way with large woofer and a passive radiator maybe. To me mica or poly sound better at reproducing music with a lot of heavy guitar work that is supposed to be played back at 11.
Many store bought speakers even from name brands will try and cut corners by using very run of the mill Xo's that have had very little, if any attention paid in taming rising impedance's or making sure that the components will still be doing what they are supposed to be doing once the volume knob gets cranked up. A zobal network or an LCR might fix the problem.
Then it might be that the speakers are just plain junk that can't be played at 11.
If you want a test tune for this type of music the can I suggest “Gojira - in the Forest”, if you can make it past half way then there drums are well recorded (imo) with good spacing of the guitars with some interesting fade effects.
Something a little “lighter” would be “Haken - cockroach king”
Also if you want something congested then “Slipknot - duality” would do the job.
Something a little “lighter” would be “Haken - cockroach king”
Also if you want something congested then “Slipknot - duality” would do the job.
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Tweeters move too fast to see them moving and they can't do any excursion either. If it muddies up in the highs, they distort and compress too much or your amp got to its limits. If the former is the case, use a larger tweeter or a horn. Or a higher crossover frequency. Or both.
No. If it's the room, then it would happen at low volumes too unless it's a rattle of a cabinet etc.
Nope! That could be interesting. Is it possible in REW or any other freeware?
Best amplifier I've found to date is a Nuforce DDA-100, which is digital all the way out to the output stage. Combining this with a strictly digital signal chain elsewhere makes for the cleanest signal chain possible.
Haven't tried a whole lot of DAC's, but those I've tried kind of "muffles" the sound a bit.
That's interesting. Shallow slopes seems to be preferable in general if the drivers are linear and the tweeter can handle it. Only plus with steep slopes as I see it is less lobing/comb filtering issues.
I do indeed
AFAIK, there is no point in having a zobel network if you can get nice matching roll-offs without one.
I.e it's only really "required" if you cannot get the driver roll-off your aiming for otherwise.
Or am I missing something?
One interesting fact to note is that none of the good headphones I've tried sound muddy.
Sure, they lack dynamics and soundstage/imaging, but I'm able to easily differentiate between all the instruments and whats going on.
That's why I belive the problem lies in room modes, driver integration (with a multi-way system), or driver energy storage/decay.
Can you test room impact by comparing sound at low volumes vs high?
Reflections are just as prevalent at low volumes than higher ones no?
No. REW has some simpler clarity analyses such as C50, C80 and D50 but not STI. I think you could measure STI with ARTA in demo mode.
Yes, you can. But the behaviour is for most things exactly the same, except rattling noise which appears once the force of the sound waves is greater than the spring force, you'll mostly see how your speakers change in such a measurement unless you have really potent speakers (PA grade).
Yes, exactly the same. Unless you break a window or a mirror by the sound.
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