Hi,
I've been thinking of adding a supertweeter of sorts to my full range system.
The tweeter I am thinking off is the dayton audio.
AN25Ti-4 1" Titanium Dome Neodymium Car Audio Tweeter Pair 4 Ohm Specification Sheet
I am thinking of just adding a first order filter at 10kHz to my tweeter.
The question I am asking is this, is 1st order too low? Normally they require 2nd order at about a few kHz. I was just thinking of maybe 4uF in series, what do you think?
Oon
I've been thinking of adding a supertweeter of sorts to my full range system.
The tweeter I am thinking off is the dayton audio.
AN25Ti-4 1" Titanium Dome Neodymium Car Audio Tweeter Pair 4 Ohm Specification Sheet
I am thinking of just adding a first order filter at 10kHz to my tweeter.
The question I am asking is this, is 1st order too low? Normally they require 2nd order at about a few kHz. I was just thinking of maybe 4uF in series, what do you think?
Oon
I would ask other question first, such as;
Will I be able to hear the difference?
Will I be able to hear it at all?
What will it do to the impedance of the speaker crossover?
Will it blow my amps from the question above?
Do I really want to mess with a system that works, with unknown consequences?
Is it going to worth the trouble?
Among others.
Sorry, I don't want to put the kybosh on your playing, however..........................
Will I be able to hear the difference?
Will I be able to hear it at all?
What will it do to the impedance of the speaker crossover?
Will it blow my amps from the question above?
Do I really want to mess with a system that works, with unknown consequences?
Is it going to worth the trouble?
Among others.
Sorry, I don't want to put the kybosh on your playing, however..........................
You are right in this part. However the the frequency response still appears flat at 20KHz. So it should be more, but how much more is another matter ....Supposedly, a supertweeter should have a very exceptional frequency extension, well beyond 20 kHz.
To have a light and rigid membrane, and little dimension...it's quite rare.
Some use piezotweeters for this
That's my knowledge on the matter
Oon
A true super tweeter can reproduce up to 35, 40 or even 50kHz so the car audio tweeter can hardly be classed as a super tweeter.
The frequency response graph of the car tweeter shows the off-axis response drops off from 10kHz, being as much as 12dB down at 20kHz.
I do agree that a 4μF film capacitor is a suitable starting point for experiment for incorporating a 4Ω super tweeter (use 2μF for an 8Ω one).
If you look at the impedance curve; you will notice it rises rapidly at the highest frequencies. This is normal. What this tells you is that you may not be able to use a text book formula to calculate a capacitor value; Having said that, 4 Ohms is probably a good place to start. What I have done in the past is to use a smaller value capacitor then start to parallel capacitors to it until you get the desired "blend" with your existing system. In other words, you may start with say a 2.2 uF or 3.3 uF cap. then add 0.33 uF or 0.47 uF in parallel one at a time to gradually reduce the crossover frequency. I use inexpensive capacitors to do these types of experiments. Once I reach a final value; I usually upgrade to a higher quality capacitor. If you don't want to go through all of this then a 4.0 uF looks like a really good "first guess". If you decide you need to go lower than say 8 KHz or so; you may need a 2nd order X/O to protect the tweeter.
There is no main tweeter actually. It's a full range driver. Actually I intend to try it in all direction, including rear firing...
I could hear 20 KHz until I was over 40 years old. I know many people that could also hear this "high". As a teen and a young adult; I worked in a few different stereo and TV repair shops. We always teased and tested each other; most of us definitely could hear 20 KHz. Everybody is different of course. I read that some pipe organs do have fundamentals this high. Several musical instruments have overtones, harmonics, etc. that reach above 20 KHz; especially certain percussion (some cymbals for example). Does this mean there are lots of recordings containing frequencies this high? I very seriously doubt it.
I'm 66, and I can still hear a 15 to 16Khz tone, although it's lower in level to me, naturally.
Nevertheless, the "body"of music in its fundamental forms, that the majority of people can hear, and are concerned with, are much lower.
The people so concerned with the "extremes" of the audio frequency band are a bit obsessed with it, and not really interested in enjoying the music.
Dog hearing, alien hearing, call it what you will, it's not needed for enjoyment of music.
Even cutting lathes for records roll off the extreme frequencies, because the "sensible" technicians know it's not important to the "normal" listener.
I am 63; I start hearing loss before even 10KHz these days. I have a high output super tweeter with a highly custom crossover to help compensate. It makes it's primary contribution at 8 KHz and above. Without it; the music is definitely not as believable to me. Could I live without it? Certainly! It is true the the lowest lows and the highest highs can be attenuated or even missing entirely and still enjoy the music.
Is there only a serie cap planned with the further tweeter ? If yes there is a chance the new tweeter adds its energy below the XO to the falling highs of the main tweeter ! Weither you use a L as high pass on the first tweeter both confs will act as a bandpassed tweeter with certainly a too much close frequency distance between the low and the high XO point of its bandpass ! If your first tweeter has its high pass at 2k Hz, 3 octave will be 16 Khz for the next cut to the supertweeter !
If the roll off supersiding is not matched you may loose about precision in the soundstage but have more energy that could give subjectivly thinner or brighter high trebles (so sparkles, triangle second harmonics and space feeling if the reccording include high harmonics from the venue.
Maybe a good strategy will be a matched tweeter of the same model for off axis matching, but it's no more a super tweeter, a 3/4 may be better off axis but maybe not enough.
For a subjective better change I will bet on a rear tweeter in phase opposition at the rear of the speaker, delay given by the reflection on the front wall
In both confs, front or rear, the supertweeter will be out of phase, so I won't better too much as you don't use electronic delay. Btw not sure our ears are so much sensible to the out of phase in the highs !
Try & error tells you if you like or not the rear tweeter according your listening room, system and self listening tastes.
better caps on the genuine tweeter could give better result at the end while also a try & error wedding according the whole system (better caps or better resistor are not always wanted). I had good results on a high end speaker with coppered polypro caps in my system but which can not be took as an universal advice.
If a super tweeter of a different model of the genuine tweeter I will go to a 3/4 metal dome with very high ringing towards 30 khz (not too much on the market) or a piezzo indeed. Tries & error and listening your judge. A light planar may have a tighter heigth dispersion you can prefer or not !
If the roll off supersiding is not matched you may loose about precision in the soundstage but have more energy that could give subjectivly thinner or brighter high trebles (so sparkles, triangle second harmonics and space feeling if the reccording include high harmonics from the venue.
Maybe a good strategy will be a matched tweeter of the same model for off axis matching, but it's no more a super tweeter, a 3/4 may be better off axis but maybe not enough.
For a subjective better change I will bet on a rear tweeter in phase opposition at the rear of the speaker, delay given by the reflection on the front wall
In both confs, front or rear, the supertweeter will be out of phase, so I won't better too much as you don't use electronic delay. Btw not sure our ears are so much sensible to the out of phase in the highs !
Try & error tells you if you like or not the rear tweeter according your listening room, system and self listening tastes.
better caps on the genuine tweeter could give better result at the end while also a try & error wedding according the whole system (better caps or better resistor are not always wanted). I had good results on a high end speaker with coppered polypro caps in my system but which can not be took as an universal advice.
If a super tweeter of a different model of the genuine tweeter I will go to a 3/4 metal dome with very high ringing towards 30 khz (not too much on the market) or a piezzo indeed. Tries & error and listening your judge. A light planar may have a tighter heigth dispersion you can prefer or not !
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I usually roll off the highs a couple db down. I like loud music and when the system is real bright it starts to hurt my ears and makes listening to music very fatiguing. Plus high spl in the upper range will damage your hearing.
So this is for your car hun? Are these tweeters going to have their own amp? Are they going to be wired on the own channel or are they going to be wired in parallel with the full range speakers?
If you plan to wire these with their own amp or if they will be using their own channel whether it be on an amp or even the speaker wires coming from the head unit you can not use a 1st order XO without burning up said amp.
If you are running them parallel on the same channel as the full range speakers then yes you can but if the full range speaker dies or is taken out of the circuit the amp will go puff.
Suggestion:
If you are using an amp, use the electronic cross over on the amp if it has one and don't put any thing on the speaker side.
If you are hooking it directly to the head unit see if the head unit has XO's built in as DSP and use that instead of XO.
So this is for your car hun? Are these tweeters going to have their own amp? Are they going to be wired on the own channel or are they going to be wired in parallel with the full range speakers?
If you plan to wire these with their own amp or if they will be using their own channel whether it be on an amp or even the speaker wires coming from the head unit you can not use a 1st order XO without burning up said amp.
If you are running them parallel on the same channel as the full range speakers then yes you can but if the full range speaker dies or is taken out of the circuit the amp will go puff.
Suggestion:
If you are using an amp, use the electronic cross over on the amp if it has one and don't put any thing on the speaker side.
If you are hooking it directly to the head unit see if the head unit has XO's built in as DSP and use that instead of XO.
If the top of the cabinet is flat, a cool tweeter is the Heil ESS which is very good at those frequencies you plan. You can move it directly on the flat top to try physical delay and different angling including rear fireing. Efficienty could be closer if your FR is an high efficienty one while still need a resistor.
Zu speaker use compression driver first order at 12 k in the two way conf you targett.
How is the high of your FR on axis and 30° ? Which diameter ? maybe 10k XO is too low in relation to the FR diameter (phase plug ?) while always a goo idea to be far of the Fletcher bump around 3.5 K !
Zu speaker use compression driver first order at 12 k in the two way conf you targett.
How is the high of your FR on axis and 30° ? Which diameter ? maybe 10k XO is too low in relation to the FR diameter (phase plug ?) while always a goo idea to be far of the Fletcher bump around 3.5 K !
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