I posted this on Reddits diy audio forum and was sent here.
I’ll go into some detail about my workshop, tools, and experience. I’m not boasting of my set up or understanding… Only giving that information because I feel it’s pertinent for the advice. The Only reason I’ve gotten where I am in business, is because I’m too stupid and stubborn to give up, over the past 15 years of miserable mistakes. (Which are still daily struggle )
((((EDIT....I LOVE SIMPLE DESIGNS!!!. All of my vintage reproduction amps are the most simple and classic designs ever manufactured. Don’t get me wrong, innovation is important, but I always try to tackle classic & timeless designs, before moving onto anything groundbreaking or modern. More often than not, I find so much passion in the classics, I never move on to anything modern. I’ve used this method in all areas of life and business.))))
The title says it all.
I build guitars and violins for a living and have for the past 15 years. I have a fully equipped woodworking shop, and although a lot of my daily work is with hand tools and vintage working styles, I have a full power tool workshop as well. I just enjoy the challenge of hand tools and it allows me more time to think through what I’m doing (and hopefully make less mistakes.)
Also have a small machine shop hidden away in the corner. Mills, lathes, surface grinder, and all the trimmings. I’m a machinist by trade but haven’t done much with it in the past decade. It’s just nice to have that stuff and gets me out of a lot of trouble when I need it.
I have the tools and skills to make a professional looking product, in a timely manner. And have a lot of experience in vintage furniture reproduction, hand cut dovetails and such. have built over 100 guitar amps from scratch including the sheet-metal chassis and all details. All vintage reproduction stuff. I’ve re-coned a few speakers out of rare amps over the years, but I’ve never actually built speakers or speaker cabinets from scratch. (excluding amp cabinets)
I have a freshly restored Marantz 2325 , And a pioneer 1250… But honestly I’ll probably end up using one of my smaller receivers. I’ve always been a big fan of 5W guitar amp designs, and although I understand the importance of “headroom”, I’ll never push past the limits of a 15 W per channel amp like the pioneer 434 or similar. Love those smaller high-quality designs from that era, all of the quality and care was taken in pioneer’s smaller receivers from that time… As is seen in their 1250. Something about the humbleness and underdog style of the smaller stuff… I just like it a lot.
I was amazed to see the kits and parts available from websites like parts express. I wouldn’t mind spending around $500 to build a set of speakers, I’ve got hordes of walnut and all other types of solid woods and will build the cabinets and could even build a lot of the hardware if needed. I can knock it out in a timely manner so it will be a worthwhile effort and value. I can usually knock out a project of similar complexity in the matter of one day if I have good blueprints. (self drawn in CAD, by hand, or printed from the manufacturer.) Those blue printing classes I took so long ago, have helped me more than anything throughout my career. I’ve found the most important thing when trying to follow a plan and finish a project quickly, the most important thing is workflow. I believe they call it “order of operations“ in the professional world.
I just don’t know where to start and honestly would rather spend my time building than doing hours and hours of research on the latest and greatest speakers and kits.
Also have a humble but fully functioning electronics lab set up. I fix a lot of vintage test gear as a hobby, I’ll gladly post pictures of my lab or workshop if that helps. But if you’ve seen one you’ve seen them all.
Would love to order the parts kits and get to work, and the interwebs have such a wealth of information… I am thankful for any input you can give me. Thank you for taking the time to read this for any input you can give. I’m totally at your mercy and way out of my league here.
I guess I should add… I would like to go with the smallest footprint possible. It’s a small room, would love something that could hang on the wall or even a bookshelf design… Or maybe something tall and skinny that could go in the corners.
These will be going in my hand tool woodworking shop, which is a small room I built onto my main woodworking shop. I spent years coming up with a design for this room, motivated by the violin workshops of the 1600s and 1700s. Small, beautifully made, and as simplified as possible. Built the addition myself including all trim, wiring, everything. Jesus I will never do that again that was miserable.
It’s about 10 x 20‘, hardwood oak floor, tongue and groove heart pine ceiling, with a wide open floor.... just a woodworking bench, a few oak shelves for hand tool storage, and my small rolltop desk with some electronics tools. It’s pretty much wide open, and the ceiling goes up to an A-frame about 20 feet tall. I can include a picture of the room if needed. Needless to say it’s a small room.
not sure if it matters… But I mostly listen to old country, blues, classic rock, stuff like that but have been known to crank up the volume on some of the modern stuff … I’m a big steel panther fan ( don’t judge me )
I have no idea if the room dimensions or the type of music matters.
Thanks again for your time, and if you made it to the end of all of this rambling you’re more patient than I am.
I’ll go into some detail about my workshop, tools, and experience. I’m not boasting of my set up or understanding… Only giving that information because I feel it’s pertinent for the advice. The Only reason I’ve gotten where I am in business, is because I’m too stupid and stubborn to give up, over the past 15 years of miserable mistakes. (Which are still daily struggle )
((((EDIT....I LOVE SIMPLE DESIGNS!!!. All of my vintage reproduction amps are the most simple and classic designs ever manufactured. Don’t get me wrong, innovation is important, but I always try to tackle classic & timeless designs, before moving onto anything groundbreaking or modern. More often than not, I find so much passion in the classics, I never move on to anything modern. I’ve used this method in all areas of life and business.))))
The title says it all.
I build guitars and violins for a living and have for the past 15 years. I have a fully equipped woodworking shop, and although a lot of my daily work is with hand tools and vintage working styles, I have a full power tool workshop as well. I just enjoy the challenge of hand tools and it allows me more time to think through what I’m doing (and hopefully make less mistakes.)
Also have a small machine shop hidden away in the corner. Mills, lathes, surface grinder, and all the trimmings. I’m a machinist by trade but haven’t done much with it in the past decade. It’s just nice to have that stuff and gets me out of a lot of trouble when I need it.
I have the tools and skills to make a professional looking product, in a timely manner. And have a lot of experience in vintage furniture reproduction, hand cut dovetails and such. have built over 100 guitar amps from scratch including the sheet-metal chassis and all details. All vintage reproduction stuff. I’ve re-coned a few speakers out of rare amps over the years, but I’ve never actually built speakers or speaker cabinets from scratch. (excluding amp cabinets)
I have a freshly restored Marantz 2325 , And a pioneer 1250… But honestly I’ll probably end up using one of my smaller receivers. I’ve always been a big fan of 5W guitar amp designs, and although I understand the importance of “headroom”, I’ll never push past the limits of a 15 W per channel amp like the pioneer 434 or similar. Love those smaller high-quality designs from that era, all of the quality and care was taken in pioneer’s smaller receivers from that time… As is seen in their 1250. Something about the humbleness and underdog style of the smaller stuff… I just like it a lot.
I was amazed to see the kits and parts available from websites like parts express. I wouldn’t mind spending around $500 to build a set of speakers, I’ve got hordes of walnut and all other types of solid woods and will build the cabinets and could even build a lot of the hardware if needed. I can knock it out in a timely manner so it will be a worthwhile effort and value. I can usually knock out a project of similar complexity in the matter of one day if I have good blueprints. (self drawn in CAD, by hand, or printed from the manufacturer.) Those blue printing classes I took so long ago, have helped me more than anything throughout my career. I’ve found the most important thing when trying to follow a plan and finish a project quickly, the most important thing is workflow. I believe they call it “order of operations“ in the professional world.
I just don’t know where to start and honestly would rather spend my time building than doing hours and hours of research on the latest and greatest speakers and kits.
Also have a humble but fully functioning electronics lab set up. I fix a lot of vintage test gear as a hobby, I’ll gladly post pictures of my lab or workshop if that helps. But if you’ve seen one you’ve seen them all.
Would love to order the parts kits and get to work, and the interwebs have such a wealth of information… I am thankful for any input you can give me. Thank you for taking the time to read this for any input you can give. I’m totally at your mercy and way out of my league here.
I guess I should add… I would like to go with the smallest footprint possible. It’s a small room, would love something that could hang on the wall or even a bookshelf design… Or maybe something tall and skinny that could go in the corners.
These will be going in my hand tool woodworking shop, which is a small room I built onto my main woodworking shop. I spent years coming up with a design for this room, motivated by the violin workshops of the 1600s and 1700s. Small, beautifully made, and as simplified as possible. Built the addition myself including all trim, wiring, everything. Jesus I will never do that again that was miserable.
It’s about 10 x 20‘, hardwood oak floor, tongue and groove heart pine ceiling, with a wide open floor.... just a woodworking bench, a few oak shelves for hand tool storage, and my small rolltop desk with some electronics tools. It’s pretty much wide open, and the ceiling goes up to an A-frame about 20 feet tall. I can include a picture of the room if needed. Needless to say it’s a small room.
not sure if it matters… But I mostly listen to old country, blues, classic rock, stuff like that but have been known to crank up the volume on some of the modern stuff … I’m a big steel panther fan ( don’t judge me )
I have no idea if the room dimensions or the type of music matters.
Thanks again for your time, and if you made it to the end of all of this rambling you’re more patient than I am.
Last edited:
check out XRK971's thread on miniKarlsonators under loudspeaker full range. I'll admit to being a bit biased in that I built his first pair in 1/2" baltic birch. The outside dimensions are about 9-1/2 wide by 10 deep by 17 high. The speakers themselves are remarkably detailed. Perhaps lacking a little in bass. The plans are available as a Sketchup design.
Nice post
Yes Room size and music preferences really do matter, A bigger room really does need bigger speakers. If you like a deep bass line then you need big woofers In a 10'*20' room I would want at a minimum a pair of 10 inch woofers and would prefer a pair on 12" so I am looking at rather large boxes and a 3-Way speaker
There are a lot of good and some great designs out there I now have to quickly google Steel Panther
Time out finished
Build the Paul Carmody "Tarkus"
Tarkus - undefinition
make a box that will dissipate vibrations... dampen internals as well as possible...
build wave guide for woofer with router... bevel the inside to allow air movement...
use thin walls , with very detail internal bracings, lot of screws, lot of side bitumen paddings, as much wool as possible internal...
if you succeed not only you can have a good box, good sound, but low noise, this is going to make your sound fast and transparent.
build wave guide for woofer with router... bevel the inside to allow air movement...
use thin walls , with very detail internal bracings, lot of screws, lot of side bitumen paddings, as much wool as possible internal...
if you succeed not only you can have a good box, good sound, but low noise, this is going to make your sound fast and transparent.
Barney,
You might consider my Modified CBT24 array project for your needs. You can read about my experiences at:
My New Line Array--It's a Modified CBT24
My listening room (see details and photos in my link) is a bit larger than yours and has an 18 feet high ceiling apex. Conversely to point source speakers, this array will control room reflections and improve listening.
My speakers are derived from work done by Don Keele Jr. Keele also worked with Parts Express on the Epique CBT24 design available as a CBT kit for $1000 or finished at $1500 from P-E. My design uses a different (better) driver and improves the structure of the cabinet vs. the Epique. Either the Epique or my modified version would be a delight to hear in your room with added subwoofers and electronics.
You might consider my Modified CBT24 array project for your needs. You can read about my experiences at:
My New Line Array--It's a Modified CBT24
My listening room (see details and photos in my link) is a bit larger than yours and has an 18 feet high ceiling apex. Conversely to point source speakers, this array will control room reflections and improve listening.
My speakers are derived from work done by Don Keele Jr. Keele also worked with Parts Express on the Epique CBT24 design available as a CBT kit for $1000 or finished at $1500 from P-E. My design uses a different (better) driver and improves the structure of the cabinet vs. the Epique. Either the Epique or my modified version would be a delight to hear in your room with added subwoofers and electronics.
Why thin walls ? They go together with bitumen padding, indeed...
But, why? You mean the opposite, eh?! The walls should be as they are named, walls, and in the speaker the enclosure should be a "wall" for the waves ( back wave produced from the speaker), soundproof.
Oh, yes, why low noise
What has noise got do do with a passive component ?!
We have worked to make many enclosure designs for the diy community & small cottage industries. We have done literally hundreds. Predominantly full-range (1-way speakers) or WAW (Woofer Assited using a FR as a midTweeter (a 2-way with a low XO so as to avoid many of the evils of XOs).
These include the Frugel-Horn family, the big Woden Olson/Nagaoka Horns, and all of the miniOnkens.
Some of the free examples at any of my sites in the signature.
Scott Dunn (SCD), Bernie (hobbers) & paul burchell for details & pictures of solid wood builds.
dave
These include the Frugel-Horn family, the big Woden Olson/Nagaoka Horns, and all of the miniOnkens.
Some of the free examples at any of my sites in the signature.
Scott Dunn (SCD), Bernie (hobbers) & paul burchell for details & pictures of solid wood builds.
dave
Size? Shape? Construction tech? Designs with free crossover parts values?
A simple well-braced plywood box with a thick front baffle allowing low edge diffraction beveled cuts?
To help focus your personal goals.
Make a long visit to:
==============
DIY Loudspeakers
by
Troels Gravesen, Denmark
"Welcome to my website! Below you will find articles on some of the work done over the last fifteen years."
===========
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
DIY-Loudspeakers
A simple well-braced plywood box with a thick front baffle allowing low edge diffraction beveled cuts?
To help focus your personal goals.
Make a long visit to:
==============
DIY Loudspeakers
by
Troels Gravesen, Denmark
"Welcome to my website! Below you will find articles on some of the work done over the last fifteen years."
===========
DIY Loudspeaker Projects Troels Gravesen
DIY-Loudspeakers
Attachments
Well you asked a good question:
The narrow (10ft) room presents a challenge as early side reflections off the walls are not good for speaker imaging. The corner placement in general is a bad idea unless we are talking some CD horns. Horns are good as a woodworking challenge but get really big quickly. For on wall mounting you could try an interesting build like Cornu spiral speaker (also described on diyaudio).
You can either go with tall and slim arrays on the far (opposite) wall and have those play back at you over the length of the room.
However, if you want to beat any commercial-like speaker, you would be stunned by the clarity and the lack of colorations in a super slim package with LXmini speakers (designed by the late Siegfried Linkwitz). And then you can add a subwoofer separately later on some place in the room.
These are not a woodworking challenge (unless you make it so in your version). They are also an active speaker which means they require a digital crossover (MiniDSP 2x4 HD) flashed with Siegfried's file and they require 4 channels of amplification. i.e. two stereo amplifiers (plus one channel if you decide to add a sub).
for commercial-like DIY passive Xover designs Troels G is a good reference.
Good luck.
The narrow (10ft) room presents a challenge as early side reflections off the walls are not good for speaker imaging. The corner placement in general is a bad idea unless we are talking some CD horns. Horns are good as a woodworking challenge but get really big quickly. For on wall mounting you could try an interesting build like Cornu spiral speaker (also described on diyaudio).
You can either go with tall and slim arrays on the far (opposite) wall and have those play back at you over the length of the room.
However, if you want to beat any commercial-like speaker, you would be stunned by the clarity and the lack of colorations in a super slim package with LXmini speakers (designed by the late Siegfried Linkwitz). And then you can add a subwoofer separately later on some place in the room.
These are not a woodworking challenge (unless you make it so in your version). They are also an active speaker which means they require a digital crossover (MiniDSP 2x4 HD) flashed with Siegfried's file and they require 4 channels of amplification. i.e. two stereo amplifiers (plus one channel if you decide to add a sub).
for commercial-like DIY passive Xover designs Troels G is a good reference.
Good luck.
For Barney's 10' x 20' sized room a CBT24 array will have important characteristics. Don Keele reports that his CBT arrays exhibit 3D sound radiation with constant beamwidth, constant directivity, constant coverage, and constant radiated power. Thus anywhere within the space of his shop will have exceptional sound. No small sweet spot but anywhere within the shop: he will hear great sound throughout.
You not forced to sit in a single chair which is carefully located to hear optimum sound.
You not forced to sit in a single chair which is carefully located to hear optimum sound.
There is a Nelson Pass designed analog active XO for the LX-mini.
All the info needed for DIY can be found on these pages, and there is a kit on the diyAudio Store.
Analog Crossover Network – diyAudio Store
dave
Popular horn tweeters have a controlled directivity of Horizontal = 90deg and Vertical = 40deg. If you overlay the L=90H x R=90H patterns on your floorplan, you may be able to focus this soundstage to the work area and avoid some side equipment reflections. If you mount the speakers on the wall, the 40V can reduce floor and ceiling interactions. A large number of free EconoWave designs are available. A 12" midbass with a 1" compression driver would fit your room... could be mounted on the walls.
The $76 12" paper cone Dayton DS315P has been used with a few compression drivers + horns for $200 - $250 per speaker for parts. On the wall, the -F3 is 35Hz. I have proven crossover schematics. PartsExpress has all the parts.
============
The 12" Eminence KappaLite 3012HO for $202 is one great sounding upgrade.
$202 Eminence KappaLite 3012HO midbass
$65 Peerless 1" compression driver DFM-2544R00-08
$13 B-52 PHRN 1014 waveguide
$40 crossover parts
$320
The $76 12" paper cone Dayton DS315P has been used with a few compression drivers + horns for $200 - $250 per speaker for parts. On the wall, the -F3 is 35Hz. I have proven crossover schematics. PartsExpress has all the parts.
============
The 12" Eminence KappaLite 3012HO for $202 is one great sounding upgrade.
$202 Eminence KappaLite 3012HO midbass
$65 Peerless 1" compression driver DFM-2544R00-08
$13 B-52 PHRN 1014 waveguide
$40 crossover parts
$320
Attachments
!!!WOW!!!
Everyone is so helpful!! Thank you for making me feel so welcome.
Thank you all so much for the time and thought put into your replies. I have printed everything out, and will meticulously dissect all of your information.
Folks weren’t joking when they said this is the best place for DIY sound!
I’ve done a lot of reading over the past few days, and I understand HiFi is a massively complex topic. I have a lot of experience dealing with similar complexity in various genres of craftsmanship. However… Audio and hi-fi are just as intimidating as anything I’ve encountered..... Because although there is science and numbers behind most things, hi-fi can be very subjective and opinion-based.
I am used to this, when dealing with the violin industry, which is very subjective also… But hi-fi sometimes takes that subjectiveness and snobbery to another level. But I have found nothing but support and kindness here and in other corners of the Internet. Which supports my theory, that most professionals/ serious hobbyists… Are generally great folks who are willing to help.
So far this info has really narrowed it down for me, although I’m still perplexed on the cabinet material.
I was under the impression solid wood would be better. Similar to furniture… MDF furniture is usually considered cheapest, and as you move up in grades of plywood, veneer, and then get into solid woods… finally moving to the highest quality.... which is large wide “one piece” boards, of air dried quality lumber.
But a few have stated that MDF is used for a reason, even on the most expensive quality speakers. This blew my mind, and I cringe to think of building anything of MDF. Not because of snobbery or tone, but because it’s smart to use the best materials when spending one’s time in building something.
Again, Thank You all for the information, I will read through the printed pages and be timely with updates to my situation.
I hope to choose a design and order the components within the next few days.
Everyone is so helpful!! Thank you for making me feel so welcome.
Thank you all so much for the time and thought put into your replies. I have printed everything out, and will meticulously dissect all of your information.
Folks weren’t joking when they said this is the best place for DIY sound!
I’ve done a lot of reading over the past few days, and I understand HiFi is a massively complex topic. I have a lot of experience dealing with similar complexity in various genres of craftsmanship. However… Audio and hi-fi are just as intimidating as anything I’ve encountered..... Because although there is science and numbers behind most things, hi-fi can be very subjective and opinion-based.
I am used to this, when dealing with the violin industry, which is very subjective also… But hi-fi sometimes takes that subjectiveness and snobbery to another level. But I have found nothing but support and kindness here and in other corners of the Internet. Which supports my theory, that most professionals/ serious hobbyists… Are generally great folks who are willing to help.
So far this info has really narrowed it down for me, although I’m still perplexed on the cabinet material.
I was under the impression solid wood would be better. Similar to furniture… MDF furniture is usually considered cheapest, and as you move up in grades of plywood, veneer, and then get into solid woods… finally moving to the highest quality.... which is large wide “one piece” boards, of air dried quality lumber.
But a few have stated that MDF is used for a reason, even on the most expensive quality speakers. This blew my mind, and I cringe to think of building anything of MDF. Not because of snobbery or tone, but because it’s smart to use the best materials when spending one’s time in building something.
Again, Thank You all for the information, I will read through the printed pages and be timely with updates to my situation.
I hope to choose a design and order the components within the next few days.
Moondog probably has it right - Tarkus is aimed at your listening tastes and would fill your room. Drivers would run about $200 for the pair, leaving plenty of budget for crossovers, hardware and lumber. Lots of room for creative expression in building the cabinets, too.
Forget solid wood for the cabinet bodies, it's not dimensionally stable enough for this purpose. Use 3/4" Baltic Birch plywood, and add a fancy veneer if you like. Use "plenty of bracing" in the woofer box as the design calls for.
Bill
Forget solid wood for the cabinet bodies, it's not dimensionally stable enough for this purpose. Use 3/4" Baltic Birch plywood, and add a fancy veneer if you like. Use "plenty of bracing" in the woofer box as the design calls for.
Bill
If I could afford 20mm Baltic Birch ply it is all I would use, it is a very good material for the purpose. Speaker boxes are not furniture but look at some of the Tarkus builds over at Paul Carmodies page and see what people have done with paint and veneers. Speakers are not like musical instruments, they should not contribute anything to the reproduction of the recorded music, musically speaking they should be as dead / inert as reasonably possible
Hey, you're lucky. With woodworking skill like yours, exotic speaker designs impossible to find in the retail market (because of complexity of construction, bleeding-edge tech/engineering/components and unusual looks) are attainable. Examples include the Jim Griffin CBT array (already suggested above), the Unitized Image Control Waveguide, The Two Towers, the XBush
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