It's a good job you're here because we'd all be running around like headless chickens if it wasn't for you telling us what to do, and after all these years using audio forums I feel like i've finally met the messiah
ha ha ha...good one! Actually, I am really just trying to share info here. I really don't care if anyone believes me or not! Why do we all have this crazy hobby to begin with?It's a good job you're here because we'd all be running around like headless chickens if it wasn't for you telling us what to do, and after all these years using audio forums I feel like i've finally met the messiah
Well, for me, I want the absolute possible best sound quality at any given price range. I don't care who designed or had the original idea first. I am retired and really don't care about anybody's ideas that I am am real pain to deal with!
Some of the best and most famous Engineers and Scientists in the world had almost zero ability to deal with other people's BS. I am the same way; I only deal in facts as I see them. I want the same thing as everyone else; extremely accurate reproduction...end of story..
It is a bit sad, that with retirement you seemingly lost all engineering knowledge. Otherwise we could have had a discussion that might have brought us somewhere. Like taking these subjective experiences and trying to figure out a pattern that emerges from the connected numbers. You have made your points. You were an engineer of some kind at Bell Labs (since a while that's Nokia, did you engineer rubber boots?), you listen to live music, you are the pinnacle in your barnacle. Great.
What really matters is post #79.
What really matters is post #79.
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I think below a certain frequency point more expensive caps might not make a difference. From what some people say the higher frequencies suffer with cheaper caps. I haven,t really experimented with expensive caps as the audyn q4 sounds very good and very clean for the money. caps maybe do have a sonic signature because I did find the clarity caps do sound a little warmer and slower than the audyns. How much this matters is debatable. I do think a very good crossover design makes a bigger difference than extremely expensive caps. I would spend my money first on better drivers and better enclosures first before spending awful amounts of money on $100+ dollar caps. I almost died seeing prices for pure copper and bees wax capacitors for $150-$400 each. would be nice to play around with these but that's a little rich for the vast majority of consumer market. I do use military spec mills resistors in my lpads as these might be a weak link but the $2.50 cent mox resistors probably do a pretty good job. Inductors well...the laws of diminishing returns kick in when the dcr gets sufficiently low so...I found that a good designed network soldered down to heavy board inside my cabinet with reduced vibrations payed nice dividends as well. Thanks to those engineers who give us the guidance not to overspend when it's not really going to get good results.
Removing it from the enclosure, put the elements of the crossover on spring suspension, completely eliminates vibrations.
Strictly situational convenience here. But yeah, heavy external enclosure would be best. springs might be overkill. ;>).
ha ha, another good one! Yes the engineering, math, science all matter of course. The thing is; I have been doing this for decades. I start out with cheap parts first to get my X/O close to where I want it to be. Then I start swapping out different parts, one a time, doing critical listening tests with a direct A-B comparison. I am literally inches away from the drivers when I do this. Sometimes, the sound quality between 2 different components is immediately apparent; one may sound congested or bloated in some way while the other brings out details the first component totally "misses".
Higher price does not necessarily make a component sound "better". Yes, I listen to live music; to me, that helps to re-calibrate what everything "should: sound like. I don't believe all the hype and propaganda some vendors like to try to sell you on. I believe my own ears. Over the years and decades even, I am have narrowed down my personal first choices of capacitors, resistors, inductors, etc. See post 31; someone else saying similar things as me.
Another point I'm trying to make is that I understand what it takes to do a thorough analysis. I am no longer surrounded by world class test equipment but I don't really need it to do what it is I'm trying to do.
If you don't believe my experiences that's OK. If you do believe, that's OK too. If you never experiment with different parts you will never, ever really know for sure will you?
Probably safer to assume we have all heard differences between capacitors due to experimenting. Now, many of us try to learn why, and how to avoid problems.
This is interesting. Why do you do this? I ask because I suspect something else could be going on.
This is interesting. Why do you do this? I ask because I suspect something else could be going on.
Valid points people. I do the critical listening from my usual listening position AFTER I have done the very close-up A-B comparisons. I repeat this MANY times over. Also, I sometimes just do a single driver all by itself to compare the effects within it's own intended pass-band. It may take me hours, sometimes days to really "fine-tune" a final crossover configuration. The point I keep making about live music and musicians is that I feel I have an extra keen sense of what sounds "just right" verses something is not quite right here but I'm not sure what exactly. Take for example the sound of a bass clarinet. I have a particular jazz recording that is very well recorded. I use this as one of my many references. The harmonics and overtones, etc. of a bass clarinet are much more subtle than say that of a tenor or baritone saxophone. If the overall spectral balance is somehow "off"; the bass clarinet can sound either too hollow and dull or too edgy and bright. I know when I get this balance "just right"; I have the fine-tuning within say the final 5% or so of a "final" configuration.
If I DID have expensive test equipment available; I WOULD use it. Again; I trust my ears.
What chemical and physical and electrical properties, etc. of say a well designed capacitor do not concern me greatly. All I care about is what gives me the most musically accurate sound qualities I am seeking within any given price range. I rather enjoy the journey of mix and match if you will; the whole process of "fine-tuning: as I call it is actually very enjoyable for me. I have all the time I need to work on any given "project"; as I said before; what ever floats your boat and frosts your cookies...
If I DID have expensive test equipment available; I WOULD use it. Again; I trust my ears.
What chemical and physical and electrical properties, etc. of say a well designed capacitor do not concern me greatly. All I care about is what gives me the most musically accurate sound qualities I am seeking within any given price range. I rather enjoy the journey of mix and match if you will; the whole process of "fine-tuning: as I call it is actually very enjoyable for me. I have all the time I need to work on any given "project"; as I said before; what ever floats your boat and frosts your cookies...
OK, let's try to close the loop on this. Many of you by now think I am totally off by my statements.
I have talked to many sound men, recording Engineers and so called music producers over many years and yes. even decades!
They ALL depend on their ability to hear and use as their very FINAL judgement on their own ears!
For you other people still skeptical; I worked for the ORIGINAL Bell Labs; acoustics and electronics today depend on what we researched and experimented in the past. If you have a problem with that; then you should be ashamed and go back to fundamental research of how this all came about to begin with!
I have ZERO apologies!
I have talked to many sound men, recording Engineers and so called music producers over many years and yes. even decades!
They ALL depend on their ability to hear and use as their very FINAL judgement on their own ears!
For you other people still skeptical; I worked for the ORIGINAL Bell Labs; acoustics and electronics today depend on what we researched and experimented in the past. If you have a problem with that; then you should be ashamed and go back to fundamental research of how this all came about to begin with!
I have ZERO apologies!
Since your very first post on this thread was to advise the OP to randomly change crossover components for others of the same value, and not even hint that he might want to assess the fundamentals of his loudspeaker's design (such as on / off axis FR, distortion performance, crossover electrical and acoustical design &c., all of which completely dominate the sonic character), you may wish to recall your time at Bell more thoroughly. I have yet to meet or converse with one of their engineers who would even dream of advising somebody who is dissatisfied with a product to ignore basic engineering known to dominate performance in favour of wildly changing components for others of equivalent base value. In fact, they would be horrified that their engineering legacy was being sullied by claims to the contrary.
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Yes, we all have our beliefs and opinions. The original idea was to change capacitors to try to improve sound. Yes, it CAN make a HUGE difference, NO, it is not the first step necessarily! Again, there are MANY tricks in the tool box. If the OP wants to experiment and try different caps; I totally support that. If they want to do a thorough analysis with the most sophisticated test equipment in the world; there is nothing wrong with that either. For less than $50US and zero experience with nothing more than a few clip leads; a valid experiment can be performed. This was my original intent to support that. As the thread became more complex, more details became apparent. That is basically how I see it.
Looking at online reviews for this speaker I can't see anyone complaining about things getting overwhelmed. Maybe the amp isn't up to driving the speakers? I'd be surprised if Dynaudio produced a speaker that suffered from this problem, even more so seeing as it's a one-off special to celebrate "40 years of cutting-edge research"
As for sounding slightly muddy, I wonder if that's got anything to do with the low frequency extension? In the reviews it did say they go pretty deep for a standmount, so that combined with room gain/boundary reinforcement could cause peaks in the low frequencies and muddy the sound.
You could try temporarily extending the port to see if a lower port tuning frequency helps. Just stick some rolled up cardboard in the port and let it hand out the back.
As for sounding slightly muddy, I wonder if that's got anything to do with the low frequency extension? In the reviews it did say they go pretty deep for a standmount, so that combined with room gain/boundary reinforcement could cause peaks in the low frequencies and muddy the sound.
You could try temporarily extending the port to see if a lower port tuning frequency helps. Just stick some rolled up cardboard in the port and let it hand out the back.
Maybe we can just ignore that guy who at age 63 has already been retired for so long that he forgot about all engineering practice and terminology.
(But what do we know, he basically invented loudspeakers at Bell!)
(But what do we know, he basically invented loudspeakers at Bell!)
Ha ha, another good one! I am not against getting to the true root of the problem via proven scientific methods and standards; quite the contrary. I really was literally surrounded by some of the best minds in acoustics and electronics, etc. as well as having access to some of the most sophisticated, SOA test equipment in the world. These were my points all along about the legacy.
If you go back through the posts, you will see that there are others agreeing with me. Swapping a few components is a very inexpensive, quick and simple thing to do for anyone that can use basic tools and a soldering iron. Obtaining the necessary test equipment, calibrated microphones and any and everything else one would need to do proper testings is NOT quick, cheap or easy to do. It really just comes down to that, the original question was about trying to modify a crossover to obtain better sound "quality". Part of the answer is yes it can "sometimes" make a huge difference and all you need is a decent recording and your own two ears...end of the story...
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