I really like the "ZISTERS" available from Meniscus. For the same reason I like the Superior Z caps from Jantzen. Clean, open, non-coloring, etc.
I like the Hepa-Litz inductors from Solen the best also for the same reasons.
Best of luck, happy experimenting!
If you are serious then here are a few things you can do so you can back out and get back to original if need be.
Leave the original crossovers alone but disconnect the input and output wires. Label them and make a diagram FIRST to avoid oh-crap moments later! Get a dual input terminal plate, cup whatever that has 2 sets of binding posts, terminals etc. Get some pegboard and make a new external crossover up on the peg board. This works well because you can cable tie the parts down. Carefully replace the original terminal set with the dual set. Even if it doesn't match up physically, you can screw it down temporarily just make sure there are no air leaks. Wire one set of terminals DIRECTLY to the tweeter, wire the other set DIRECTLY to the woofer. MAKE SURE TO MARK AND LABEL TWEETER AND WOOFER AND POLARITY before you close it up.
Now you can experiment with as many parts as you care to but still have the original you can go back to if need be. And, if the new crossover is too large, just mount it externally; leaving the original in place keeps the box volume the same...
I don't even remember when I saw a 1st order Dynaudio speaker measurement. There were many of the old ones, but nowadays, almost every model is a high-order solution.
Here is the Special 40 step response from the Stereophile measurement. Typical 4th order acoustic crossover with the midwoofer one cycle behind the tweeter.
Dynaudio Special Forty loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com
Many good points and opinions here but, the truth is, higher quality crossover parts DO make a difference. There is a point of diminishing returns of course. I am a retired Engineer, Technician and former musician. I have played around with many different crossovers and drivers and can tell you with great confidence there are improvements to be made, sometimes significantly by using higher quality crossover parts. I do direct A-B comparisons with my most familiar recordings when fine tuning my final crossover for any new design. Again, there is a point of diminishing returns; you wouldn't use $100 capacitors on a $20 tweeter or midrange. Also again; if the drivers are capable of high resolution but inferior crossover parts are used; improvements can be made. If, however, the drivers are NOT very "musical" or "accurate" to begin with; you would wasting money upgrading the crossover.
Crossovers are a Traditional Profit centre for wannabee improvers.
Can only suggest; fill your dreams.. at least until the fever runs it's course.
Curiously No mention of amplifications or even source.
These too can /do muddy sounds, most certainly complex ones.
IMO lotsa speakers take the blame for poor downstream electronics.
Can only suggest; fill your dreams.. at least until the fever runs it's course.
Curiously No mention of amplifications or even source.
These too can /do muddy sounds, most certainly complex ones.
IMO lotsa speakers take the blame for poor downstream electronics.
@nipper
No one says they can't. You overstate the potential effect. We are trying to keep it in perspective. There are other more significant potential avenues of improvement with this speaker. Component rolling is a potential trap for new players (and for those that don't understand crossover design, so it gets far too much attention IMO).
No one says they can't. You overstate the potential effect. We are trying to keep it in perspective. There are other more significant potential avenues of improvement with this speaker. Component rolling is a potential trap for new players (and for those that don't understand crossover design, so it gets far too much attention IMO).
this can go on and on forever. If you do NOT know what you are doing; the path may lead nowhere. However; I am a retired Bell Labs Engineer and I can tell you for sure that what I have already said is true. I studied acoustics and electronics under the best minds in the entire world on many continents. Those that are afraid to experiment and piddle about are doomed for a very narrow box supposedly defined by strict adherence to science and math. You people are missing the point entirely! Musicians know best what sounds "right" and not quite "right" and really not "right". Stop adhering to strict principles and open up your minds and ears; you will be surprised at what lies beyond you're "understandings"!
Well said!
For example, if we think that a capacitor is a perfect capacitor and nothing else, it may be a novelty that perfect things do not exist.
You just have to look at what kind of capacitors are being developed to stay on the subject only, can all be BS?
Of course, the purely objectivist is not trying to gain any other experience, because he considers it a waste of time.
I have built several passive crossover with Jantzen components and i have to say that their different priced products have a different soundcharacter. Which one is better in an application depends on several things, but it is certain that their voice is different.
I don't know what causes the difference (not the capacitance value that's sure), i think maybe the dielectric and the inner physical stability of the capacitor. But who cares? Use that, what your ears like.
Remember that a capacitor is not a conductor, unlike a resistor or inductor.
If I would like to modify it, then i would build a completely new crossover board in place of the OP and put the original in the drawer.
For example, if we think that a capacitor is a perfect capacitor and nothing else, it may be a novelty that perfect things do not exist.
You just have to look at what kind of capacitors are being developed to stay on the subject only, can all be BS?
Of course, the purely objectivist is not trying to gain any other experience, because he considers it a waste of time.
I have built several passive crossover with Jantzen components and i have to say that their different priced products have a different soundcharacter. Which one is better in an application depends on several things, but it is certain that their voice is different.
I don't know what causes the difference (not the capacitance value that's sure), i think maybe the dielectric and the inner physical stability of the capacitor. But who cares? Use that, what your ears like.
Remember that a capacitor is not a conductor, unlike a resistor or inductor.
If I would like to modify it, then i would build a completely new crossover board in place of the OP and put the original in the drawer.
Of course, a manufacturer can claim anything about his product if he can explain it somehow (or not). However, the measurements do not lie and in the case of Special 40 it is certainly not an acoustical 1st order solution.
Yes, they do
My favorite line: "trust your ears". Of course, there is a science and math to explain the different sound characteristics of different components having the same "value". I don't need to dig THAT deep as though I had a PHD in chemistry or physics; that isn't what's important to me.
I have been doing speakers building, testing, listening all of my own design for almost 50 years. I started playing musical instruments before that even. Within my family (immediate and slightly extended) we have several singers and multiple musical instruments including flutes, clarinets, saxophones, trumpet, trombone, french horn, acoustic and electric bass, acoustic and electric guitar, cello, several pianos and even a set of bagpipes!
So yes, trust "MY" ears works for me! Everyone should listen to live acoustic music in a proper setting at least a few times per year to "re-calibrate" their hearings as to what music really sounds "like". I'm talking no microphones, amplifiers, speakers or any other sound reinforcement. Then, do your best to remember how good that sounds next time you listen to your stereo. One could easily spend over a million dollars on stereo equipment and yet never equal the sound "quality" of a good, live performance!
Cheers!
This!
The system ( the reproduction system) starts from the pick up and ends at our ears ( thympanic membrane)...well, the sound after being recognized as musical sound is elaborated by the brain ( Thomas Mann said: Beauty is nothing else that Nostalgia )
And here's one of my design mantras. Has been for years. I trust my ears. But I don't trust my brain not to get fooled, or to fool itself. Anybody who claims they are immune or has never fallen into this trap has already fallen victim.
Except when they don't. I have already given one example above of a high performance speaker I designed, in a number of high performance partnering systems (yes, I take the trouble to do this) where changing crossover capacitors from a decent quality, ordinary MKP for significantly more expensive components made no audible difference. Which is not to say that no differences exist, period. In my experience they can, but this is implementation specific, requires a very high quality setup, and at best the results are subtle. What I would gently suggest is that sweeping generalisations claiming automatic, universal applicability, especially if the claimed differences are dramatic, are simply not true, and do nobody any favours. The blunt reality is that the sonic characteristics of a loudspeaker (setting the room aside) are totally dominated by:
-Frequency response on & off axis
-[related to above] polar response / dispersion performance of individual drivers
-Impedance response / load
-Acoustical & electrical phase response [especially around the XO frequency]
-Crossover acoustical order
-Crossover electrical order [inc. power handling]
-Driver distortion performance [sometimes overstated, as noted by Toole et al, but not to the point it can be utterly ignored]
-[partly related to the above] Control over stopband resonances & resulting IMD
-Power handling of all drive units
-Enclosure load, inc. relevant duct air velocities, coupling &c.
-[related to multiple above] amplifier - wire - speaker coupling, i.e. output impedance of the former & any series R in the circuit
Assuming a reasonable qualitative baseline, i.e. a well-designed loudspeaker with capacitors that perform as designed within the crossover, then any audible signature (or otherwise) of those caps comes a long way down the list of important factors. A factor to consider in a high performance system, yes: there comes a point where you try to consider everything, or as much as is possible. But in quality design the major factors come first; you don't elevate a relatively minor matter to prominence. And when assessing a system, you first assess whether those dominant matters are the potential cause, rather than flailing around in the dark randomly trying different filter components which won't help if, for the sake of example, the root cause of a problem is simply the fact that the crossover design results in limited dynamic range or high distortion through insufficient protection to the tweeter.
Except when they don't. I have already given one example above of a high performance speaker I designed, in a number of high performance partnering systems (yes, I take the trouble to do this) where changing crossover capacitors from a decent quality, ordinary MKP for significantly more expensive components made no audible difference. Which is not to say that no differences exist, period. In my experience they can, but this is implementation specific, requires a very high quality setup, and at best the results are subtle. What I would gently suggest is that sweeping generalisations claiming automatic, universal applicability, especially if the claimed differences are dramatic, are simply not true, and do nobody any favours. The blunt reality is that the sonic characteristics of a loudspeaker (setting the room aside) are totally dominated by:
-Frequency response on & off axis
-[related to above] polar response / dispersion performance of individual drivers
-Impedance response / load
-Acoustical & electrical phase response [especially around the XO frequency]
-Crossover acoustical order
-Crossover electrical order [inc. power handling]
-Driver distortion performance [sometimes overstated, as noted by Toole et al, but not to the point it can be utterly ignored]
-[partly related to the above] Control over stopband resonances & resulting IMD
-Power handling of all drive units
-Enclosure load, inc. relevant duct air velocities, coupling &c.
-[related to multiple above] amplifier - wire - speaker coupling, i.e. output impedance of the former & any series R in the circuit
Assuming a reasonable qualitative baseline, i.e. a well-designed loudspeaker with capacitors that perform as designed within the crossover, then any audible signature (or otherwise) of those caps comes a long way down the list of important factors. A factor to consider in a high performance system, yes: there comes a point where you try to consider everything, or as much as is possible. But in quality design the major factors come first; you don't elevate a relatively minor matter to prominence. And when assessing a system, you first assess whether those dominant matters are the potential cause, rather than flailing around in the dark randomly trying different filter components which won't help if, for the sake of example, the root cause of a problem is simply the fact that the crossover design results in limited dynamic range or high distortion through insufficient protection to the tweeter.
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All true! Here is something the OP could certainly try: Get a really good set of headphones and listen to the same recordings then listen to the speakers of those same recordings at approximately the same sound level. That would help rule out the recording and all associated equipments. As a matter of fact; I try to fine tune some of my speakers to get a sound similar to my reference/studio headphones. Again, I do believe in experimenting and actually get great pleasure from that. I have tried and used different crossover components in different combinations and can once again say for certain, significant improvements can be made. This does not mean everyone should try it; I also understand many people not believing it. That's OK by me; I only have to please myself and I know what sound qualities I'm personally after. To each his own...it is a very personal thing after all; just like art...whatever floats your boat and frosts your cookies!
You appear to assume a lot about the people on this thread.
Not really assuming; I just know we all have our own ideas about what is and is not important to each of us. Music, like art, is a very personal thing.
Some people are strictly focused on pure science; others on what they want a system to sound like regardless of what the "purists" say or believe. It is a weird and sometimes wild hobby we all share but in different ways and that's OK.
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