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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 7th July 2019, 10:57 AM   #11
Lojzek is offline Lojzek  Croatia
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Hi kawihornet,

thanks for the uploaded photograph and if you'd be willing to do the same for the copper side of the board, that would be awesome for we would be able to analyze the circuit precisely. Traditionally Dynaudio has been considered to be a transparent sounding product and some would think over transparent. Fashion is a terrible thing and hard to fight against and as things are in audiophile circuits, caps take the blame for practically everything. I have built myself 2 sets of Dynaudio speakers, a 3 way tower (9.5" woofer, 2" mid dome, 1.1" tweeter) and a 2 way bookshelf (6.5" midwoofer and a 1.1" tweeter). All other things being equal, 3 way is undeniably and considerably better performing loudspeaker and I attribute this to the midrange unit.
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Old 7th July 2019, 11:00 AM   #12
chris661 is offline chris661  United Kingdom
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For the issues you describe, I agree with Scottmoose's assessment, and would recommend a re-design for the crossover.

For $200, you can put together a respectable measurement system and actually find out what's going on, rather than flailing around replacing components that will produce minute differences in the sound.

Chris
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Old 7th July 2019, 12:21 PM   #13
fatmarley is offline fatmarley  England
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Years ago I owned Dynaudio audience 50se and contour 1.3 and both were dull or soft in the midrange. I think a big part of that was the self damping of the plastic cones. I've heard it in so many plastic coned speakers that I'm convinced that's what it is. Obviously it can be caused by a wonky frequency response too.
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Old 7th July 2019, 12:48 PM   #14
Scottmoose is offline Scottmoose  United Kingdom
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Assuming it's following the usual Dynaudio pattern it'll be a 1st order acoustic; likely 1st order electrical with a delay on the tweeter & whatever will give the desired slope for the midbass.

OK, final question. When it is said 'I have read a lot of bad reviews on the current caps in use', does that mean you have read a lot of bad reviews? Or does it mean you have visited Tony Gee's Humblehomemadehifi website, read what he said about them in his subjective sighted experiments in utterly different systems & conditions, and have applied his comments (I thought I recognised some of the phrasing) to the sound of your entire loudspeaker? If so, two suggestions, or points. Firstly: take a step back and ask yourself if that is really what you are hearing, or if you have simply read something and it has coloured your opinion. Above all if what you have read is about a single component, not a loudspeaker. No reflection or offense is intended by that -it's very easy to fall into that. One of my design principles is that I trust my ears, but I don't trust my brain not to be fooled, or fool itself.

Secondly -your money, your time, your choice, obviously. But rolling caps is often seen as a magic bullet by those who don't really understand design, or the actual reasons for a given loudspeaker having a given set of characteristics. So rather than spending any money at all -take some time out to learn a little more about design, the different compromises involved, and how these affect performance. You will then be in a better position to decide whether to spend money on capacitors, or to replace the loudspeaker with one that may better meet your requirements.

For reference -I've used many of the same components in commercial designs. I've also used them in the prototype for a more expensive model, the production version of which used the pricier FPP and UPP caps as they didn't break the budget, and it was expected for a speaker in its price range. I couldn't hear any difference.
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Last edited by Scottmoose; 7th July 2019 at 01:01 PM.
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Old 7th July 2019, 12:51 PM   #15
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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@ fatmarley, It could also be the result of too high a crossover point, and the choice to cross to flat on axis.
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Old 7th July 2019, 01:14 PM   #16
geotone is offline geotone  Europe
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There is any number of ways to spend $200 and get more out of it than to aimlessly tinker around with fancy replacement caps. A haircut for example would probably make as big a difference to the sound, whether it's your hair or your partner's, or even the dog's.

Scott and Chris have given very good advice I think. Any loudspeaker's sound is the result of a whole system, not that of individually stacked components. Dynaudio obviously have their own, pretty specific system approach, and your sound is the result of that. Changing some random cap (most likely a shunt anyway) will change absolutely nothing (random value tolerances and the cap vendor's bottom line excepted).

In all likelyhood, Dynaudio, as a commercial and competent brand, have pretty much gotten much of what's possible out of the drivers. You can build a different crossover with a different approach (steeper, higher, lower, etc), but you will be trading one set of compromises for another. To do that, you will need to aquire the mentioned measuring rig and a knowledge of crossover simulators (and corssover theory). It might still be worth it, depending on your tastes.
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Old 7th July 2019, 01:38 PM   #17
nipper1 is offline nipper1  United States
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I have tried many different caps, coils and resistors in my custom designs. If you have drivers capable of high resolution sonics (we'll call it that for now) but use inferior crossover components; upgrading the crossover will make a big difference. I have done A-B comparisons using clip leads or sometimes a quality switch and listen to my most familiar recordings. Higher quality crossover components do make a significant improvement in resolution. Now, everyone chiming in here have valid points but don't let that stop you from experimenting if that's what you want to do. I always experiment and have boxes full of spare parts; that is the fun part for me.
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Old 7th July 2019, 05:29 PM   #18
kawihornet is offline kawihornet  Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lojzek View Post
Hi kawihornet,

thanks for the uploaded photograph and if you'd be willing to do the same for the copper side of the board, that would be awesome for we would be able to analyze the circuit precisely. Traditionally Dynaudio has been considered to be a transparent sounding product and some would think over transparent. Fashion is a terrible thing and hard to fight against and as things are in audiophile circuits, caps take the blame for practically everything. I have built myself 2 sets of Dynaudio speakers, a 3 way tower (9.5" woofer, 2" mid dome, 1.1" tweeter) and a 2 way bookshelf (6.5" midwoofer and a 1.1" tweeter). All other things being equal, 3 way is undeniably and considerably better performing loudspeaker and I attribute this to the midrange unit.
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Old 7th July 2019, 05:33 PM   #19
kawihornet is offline kawihornet  Canada
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Originally Posted by Zuhl View Post
Better caps and resistors (don't forget them) will give a clearer, more controlled sound.


However, where are you going to put them? A Jantzen Superior (mentioned above) 15μF will take up a quarter of that PCB! That's just one component and your speakers are fairly small.


Good quality drivers deserve the best components. The fact the speaker gets good reviews without shows there is potential there.
What type of resistors would you recommend?
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Old 7th July 2019, 05:34 PM   #20
kawihornet is offline kawihornet  Canada
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Originally Posted by skyra View Post
Dynaudios have their merits, -punchy, dynamic, outstanding bass- but transparency is not their strongest point. I think what you hear is mainly driver related. Bennic PP-s are not top of the world, but they are decent enough not to impose the mentionad limitations on the sound. Also usually there is a good reason usig bipolar electrolitics in certain positions.One thing is really worth to try replacing the ceramic power resistors with 5-10W MOX types.
Thanks for the recommendation!
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