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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

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Old 11th July 2019, 10:22 AM   #41
Max Headroom is offline Max Headroom  Australia
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[LEFT]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Coltrane View Post
I trust my ears, but I don't trust my mind. It's way to easy to fool yourself. That's why the protocol is so incredibly important. When testing, you are not allowed to know what's been tested when. This is the only way to prevent fooling yourself.

Iow if you know your listening to the modified device, your brain will make assumptions not soly based on the input from your ears.
Bill, I have given you suggestions of things that you can try and have already given you too much information. In the meantime I am not interested in the slightest in debating the issue of who can hear what, you might be fooled easily but that does not mean everybody.[LEFT]BTW just what does this mean -
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Subjective measurements with the proper protocol is the only thing that matters.
Something lost in the translation maybe?

Dan.
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Old 11th July 2019, 10:59 AM   #42
Bill Coltrane is offline Bill Coltrane  Netherlands
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Hi Dan,

A subjective measurement is a measurement with your ears. And because this site is about audio, this is what matters. Iow can you hear it or not.

An analogy: Think of a complex electronic circuit with power and a signal. Now you want to know what the voltage is at point A. You put one pin of the multi meter at point A. But where do you put the other pin? If you put the other pin at a random place in the circuit, do you think you get a value that has any merit? Imo the chance of that is slim. You need to place the other pin at a reference point. Usually this is signal earth. Now you can get a value that you can use. Iow if you don't use the proper protocol to measure, your measured value will have no merit.

Exactly the same goes for a subjective measurement. If you don't have a fixed reference point, your measured value will have no merit. And the only way to get a fixed reference point is to only use your ears as input for your subjective measurement.

Best Bill.
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Old 11th July 2019, 11:08 AM   #43
Max Headroom is offline Max Headroom  Australia
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.....Exactly the same goes for a subjective measurement. If you don't have a fixed reference point, your measured value will have no merit. And the only way to get a fixed reference point is to only use your ears as input for your subjective measurement.
You can have two speakers one internally modified and one standard driven by the same signal. From outside the two speakers look the same but sound different, ears can decide preference. Perhaps you can try my suggestions and decide subjective preference for yourself.

Dan.
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Old 11th July 2019, 02:00 PM   #44
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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These should be re-drawn superimposed, referenced to the basket.
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Old 11th July 2019, 02:41 PM   #45
jan.didden is offline jan.didden  Europe
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Originally Posted by phase_accurate View Post
Hi Jan

I would say, that the glitches at points 4 and 7 when the curves are returning from the small hysteris loops are caused by this effect.

Regards
Charles
Correct. The actual L in such a point depends on where you were before. Sort of magnetic memory. Don't think it is Barkhausen though..
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Old 11th July 2019, 02:41 PM   #46
phivates is offline phivates  United States
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Also, are we really concerned with the distortion at x-mech?
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Old 11th July 2019, 03:32 PM   #47
Monteverdi is offline Monteverdi  United States
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I remember seen somewhere laser interferometry which has shown that a standard surround behaved different to the cone. This is not only a problem at x-max. At some frequency the surround is completely out of phase and especially with larger high x-max drivers the surround surface is quite large. So a more convoluted shape could lead to a more complex vibrational behavior which may reduce this interference but I can not see how it eliminates it.
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Old 11th July 2019, 04:02 PM   #48
sq225917 is offline sq225917  United Kingdom
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One notes the Yamaha ns1000m mid range driver has a pleated surround.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:13 PM   #49
Bill Coltrane is offline Bill Coltrane  Netherlands
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Max Headroom View Post
You can have two speakers one internally modified and one standard driven by the same signal. From outside the two speakers look the same but sound different, ears can decide preference. Perhaps you can try my suggestions and decide subjective preference for yourself.

Dan.
This only works if you don't know what speaker is modified.

As soon as you do know what speaker is modified and what speaker is not, your brain will use that as extra input for its perception and thus you don't use the same fixed reference point for your measurement.

Speakers just looking the same doesn't mean anything, your brain is not allowed to know what speaker has the mod. In fact it goes even further: No one in the test room is allowed to know what speaker has the mod, because they will unconsciously give clues.
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Old 11th July 2019, 07:32 PM   #50
jan.didden is offline jan.didden  Europe
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Actually, nobody should know whether a speaker was actually modded or not ;-)

Jan
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