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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

Help me choose components for my nude dipole build
Help me choose components for my nude dipole build
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Old 25th June 2019, 10:14 PM   #1
StabMe is offline StabMe
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Default Help me choose components for my nude dipole build

Hey!

I've been reading threads and posts started by Stig Eric, CharlieLaub, mige0, Jihazzi and other very inspiring people and got sick with the idea of building a nude (well, almost) dipole speaker.

Two configs are in my mind right now.

First:
Beyma 15G40 or 18Sound 15LW1401 in an H-Frame (60-200)
Beyma 12G40 as midbass/lower midrange (200-700)
BG Neo8 midrage (700-3200)
BG Neo3 HF driver (3200 and up)

Second:
Beyma 15G40 or 18Sound 15LW1401 in an H-Frame (60-200)
Beyma 12G40 as midbass/lower midrange (200-500)
Beyma 6MI100 midrange (500-2000)
Beyma TPL-150 HF driver (2000 and up)

Both sets will be eventually assisted with a single long throw monopole sub to cover 20-60 range. Both 15G40 and 15LW1401 model in Hornresp wuite nicely, promissing about 106db at 60Hz which is a good sound level (i think). I won't be listenning to a very high volume music all the time, i just want some headroom.

It will be an active system, of course. PC-XO with a FireWire audio interface. DSP in Reaper of JRiver - not decided yet.

Still not decided on a frame. I am thinking between wood or metal frame. Have a few ideas on making a frame and after everything is setup covering the front with an acoustically trasparent grille, so that the room doesn't get severely uglified

As for the room - 4mx6mx3m. (13x19x10 feet).

The first setup is almost a copy of what Juhazzi did with his AINOGRADIENT speaker aside from a bit different lower end. It has been tested and i bet i will sound good. The problem with this setup is that BG Neo planars are hard to come by. Well, Parts Express do sell them, although it has been posted several times that the product quality has become severely lower. I found a guy who is selling Neo8 made in Denmark, but can't find such an offer for Neo3. Are those recent Neos so bad, really?


The second config is a bit harder on the pocket, but still doable. If i decide to go this route, is Beyma 6MI100 a good choice as a midrange? What would you guys recommend as an xover freq for the TPL-150? Am i really going to feel significant difference in SQ by switching to second setup? I like dynamics, realism, precedence and all those thing that fancy words usually used to describe. Is the TPL-150 really worth it?
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Old 26th June 2019, 04:36 AM   #2
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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..there is the Radian LT2 dipole version (Thomann special order in EU.) Remember though that the shown spl is with the waveguide (on an "IB").. However because you would pair it with the Neo8 AND are doing an active crossover: you can use this thing a bit higher in freq. and with a "steeper" crossover slope between the two drivers.

LT2 Planar ribbon - Radian Audio

-still, similar vertical directivity to the Neo 3..


If it were me on the "low-end" (rather than the larger single Beyma or BMS driver, and continuing all the way to 20 Hz), I'd go with at least a pair of GR-based Rythmik Audio 12" drivers (in parallel - net "4 ohm average") for each loudspeaker (along with one of their higher power *servo plate-amps):
GR SW-12-08FR
Rythmik Audio • GR servo driver

Rythmik Audio • Subwoofer plate amplifiers

*and yes, there is a specific reason for this combo: the "servo" system here with drivers shouldn't need much "eq." because of the way their "servo" works.

I'd probably also take the 12" down to about 120 Hz.. (..still dsp active low-pass for the Rythmik driver/plate-amp, NOT using the plate-amp's low-pass.)
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Last edited by ScottG; 26th June 2019 at 04:51 AM.
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Old 26th June 2019, 12:09 PM   #3
StabMe is offline StabMe
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Hey Scott!

Thanks for suggestions.

There are two dispersion plots on LT2 page:

Click the image to open in full size.

and

Click the image to open in full size.

Second graph shows some significant roughness on 30 degrees. Kinda not desirable attribute for a dipole driver, no? Maybe, one is vertical, i don't know.

Another option for me is Mundorf AMT17D2.2 Any thoughts on this driver in combination with Neo8 (this one i have ordered).

BTW, 12G40 is also ordered for midbass - lower midrange duties.

18Sound 15LW1401 will be obtained at half the price.
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Old 26th June 2019, 03:49 PM   #4
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Sounds like a nice project, StabMe!

Radian LM8 and LT3 are the planars I would try first. B&G Neo10 would be better than my Neo8. Quality of those available now is a big problem, be prepared to disqualify some of them (look at distortion and spl response). I was lucky and my units are all OK. I ordered immediately two pairs way back then.

Beyma G-series perform very well, LF might have more Xmax. For low bass duties high max excursion is essential! I chose Nd because it looks so sexy as nude!

I considered a CNC'd aluminium frame, but it gets easily pretty expensive. At least make a proto first of plywood or rods etc. what is available in your garage.
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Last edited by Juhazi; 26th June 2019 at 03:55 PM.
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Old 26th June 2019, 04:31 PM   #5
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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Those wiggles in response above 10kHz are unavoidable (just like with coaxials and most horns), but fortunately not heard! And you will get even worse discontinuities with the frame anyway.
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Old 26th June 2019, 05:05 PM   #6
evanc is offline evanc  United States
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Help me choose components for my nude dipole build
Second:
Beyma 15G40 or 18Sound 15LW1401 in an H-Frame (60-200)
Beyma 12G40 as midbass/lower midrange (200-500)
Beyma 6MI100 midrange (500-2000)
Beyma TPL-150 HF driver (2000 and up)

IMHO seems to me that you could skip the 6" driver. Run the 12G40 to a tpl-150h crossing at 1k

I use a Beyma 12MI100 crossed at about 1k to a large ribbon tweeter and very much like the results.

Evan
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Last edited by evanc; 26th June 2019 at 05:08 PM.
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Old 27th June 2019, 04:36 AM   #7
ScottG is offline ScottG  United States
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Quote:
Originally Posted by StabMe View Post

Another option for me is Mundorf AMT17D2.2 Any thoughts on this driver in combination with Neo8 (this one i have ordered).

BTW, 12G40 is also ordered for midbass - lower midrange duties.

18Sound 15LW1401 will be obtained at half the price.

Mundorf is probably a better choice for it's lower freq. performance as a dipole. BUT it's a LOT more expensive. Oh, I also tend to like AMT's just a bit better than planars for the treble region (typically better lower-level detail).

The "wider" horizontal directivity (at higher freq.s) might have been an artifact of the waveguide/planar transition for the Radian.

Good news on the 18 Sound! You will of course still need the subwoofer to compliment the design: and that will add to the cost (both in terms of driver(s) and amplification) in addition to the 18 sound driver for each loudspeaker and likely more expensive amplification. To me, the Rythmik solution is preferable for a host of reasons, one of which *might be total cost.

*I say "might", because I'm assuming you are in Europe and I've really no idea how "hard" you'd get screwed-over on various taxes/fees, nor what the shipping costs would be.
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Last edited by ScottG; 27th June 2019 at 04:43 AM.
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Old 27th June 2019, 06:58 AM   #8
Juhazi is offline Juhazi  Finland
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One really important thing about dipoles above 2kHz is, if the backside radiation symmetrical to frontside. Manufacturers dont give that data, but you can guess it by looking. Cones/dynamic drivers are hopeless in this regard and I have a doubt about AMTs.

Dipole cancellation below the dipole peak overrules most wiggles in response, and gives 6dB/oct slope

Every dipole radiator has a limit up where in frequency the dipole action goes. Above 4kHz very small details of the frame become significant. With my AINOgradients I struggled with 3" cones too long before I understood this and purchased the B&G Neo8PDFR.

And yes, it really must be a 4-way! Each driver has only 2-3 octaves of smooth and consistent dipole radiation pattern without excessive distortion.

Attached is Peerless NE95 responses. More details in my thread.
Attached Images
File Type: png ne95 raw 150ms.png (88.3 KB, 227 views)
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Old 27th June 2019, 09:10 AM   #9
StabMe is offline StabMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evanc View Post
Second:
IMHO seems to me that you could skip the 6" driver. Run the 12G40 to a tpl-150h crossing at 1k

I use a Beyma 12MI100 crossed at about 1k to a large ribbon tweeter and very much like the results.

Evan
Hey Evan!

Well, i wanted a dipole system which will exhibit similar rear radiation with what it has in the front. I guess 12G40 will won't have that pattern up to 1.000Hz? I guess a twelve-incher will only be useful for 2-2 1/2 octaves (160-700-800)? And how clean is TPL-150 at 1.000Hz? from what i can see in the datasheet, it would more like an xo at about 1.5Khz?
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Old 27th June 2019, 10:51 AM   #10
StabMe is offline StabMe
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Juhazi View Post
Sounds like a nice project, StabMe!

Radian LM8 and LT3 are the planars I would try first. B&G Neo10 would be better than my Neo8. Quality of those available now is a big problem, be prepared to disqualify some of them (look at distortion and spl response). I was lucky and my units are all OK. I ordered immediately two pairs way back then.
I found Neo8s lightly used which were produced back in the day in Denmark, hope it won't have the quality problems. And as for the tweeter - i guess i would rather skip on modern BG Neo3's and go with something similar. Since i already bought Neo8s, i guess TPL150 is kinda redundant? Or is it?

I am thinking about Mundorf AMT17D2.2 which is offered at $180, not sure if it is per piece or per pair.

Quote:
Beyma G-series perform very well, LF might have more Xmax. For low bass duties high max excursion is essential! I chose Nd because it looks so sexy as nude!
I have some experience with 8G drivers - i use them as midbass drivers in my car in sealed door enclosures an can say only good things about them. mige0 also praises 12G so i decided to choose them

Quote:
I considered a CNC'd aluminium frame, but it gets easily pretty expensive. At least make a proto first of plywood or rods etc. what is available in your garage.

Those wiggles in response above 10kHz are unavoidable (just like with coaxials and most horns), but fortunately not heard! And you will get even worse discontinuities with the frame anyway.
Any recommendations for the frame? I am going to have a frame on which i will hang the drivers. 15-incher will have its own frame an be place inside the main one not touching it.

Here is a photorealistic representation of how it will look like. Please, do not confuse with the real thing - it is just a mock up. I know it looks almost like a real thing!

Click the image to open in full size.

Do you guys thing i am risking some interference from the sides of the frame which is not vertical?

I can also make just a flipped-over T frame. This will allow me to put some mesh in the front of swinging drivers in a small frame:

Click the image to open in full size.
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