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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

15in + CD - hifi 2way - low power - woofer explorations
15in + CD - hifi 2way - low power - woofer explorations
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Old 13th June 2019, 09:03 AM   #1
daemonsgr is offline daemonsgr  United Kingdom
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Default 15in + CD - hifi 2way - low power - woofer explorations

Hi all,
For a while now Ive been going through all available thread about 2way 15in (and maybe 3way) systems.
The utlimate plan is to build one 2way for me with WAF approved cabinet , so CNC curvy and slim to crate the illusion of less volume, and for a friend without a WAF a lascala bassbin with the extra BR under it (not referred in the thread).

Im looking for efficiency as I want to be able to power it with low watts too. 'hifi' quality as much as possible. My listening is not high SPL, usually 70 to 85? Also I always wanted to do a classic 15in+horn mainly with a 2226h.
2 channel music without a sub is the target for now.

I looked what well established people have done like: 4Pi, Calpamos and the threads here, to get ideas.

for the 2226h I started with the recommendation below to test in WinISD and I recreated 4Pi in CAD so I can measure the volume and compare with the published response graphs. (cab in the sims is C4/SC4)

Quote:
Originally Posted by GM
For max efficiency Vs size, BW, the pioneer's reflex alignment Vas/1.44 tuned to Fs. Using published Vas, Fs, HR predicts a mean eff. from 40-200 Hz of 98.23 dB/m/2pi/89 Hz and only dropping to 97 dB with 4 ohms output impedance.

GM
So questions:
1) How does this look? I compared it to other LF drivers I see in builds here and Im not sure about the low end, I now 2226h is not a low end driver per se but its one of the popular choices for low end.
Images attached. I manipulated volume and tuning a bit on the other drives to see what I get for comparison. all around 120-135L I believe but I think Beymas need more.

2) What should I expect when seeing simulations like these? (for all I found workable BR sizes and vent speeds etc)

3) Do you consider the other options (Beyma etc) to be better for sound quality as its newer tech etc? Any other pointers? (the simulated models are 15P80feN/ND)

The HF half seems to be something like DE250/Faital201 or something.

Thanks

PS: I attached a cad or the design I thinking (internal volume without braces etc.. very draft and propably not the correct volume with the above but close to 130L clean internal) The horn is just a placeholder! Random model. I have access to super workshop/CNC so sides will be full CNC probably.
Attached Images
File Type: png Screenshot 2019-06-12 22.52.03.png (60.5 KB, 460 views)
File Type: png Screenshot 2019-06-12 22.52.11.png (57.5 KB, 464 views)
File Type: png Screenshot 2019-06-12 22.39.14.png (61.8 KB, 466 views)
File Type: png Screenshot 2019-06-12 22.39.25.png (60.0 KB, 461 views)
File Type: png Screenshot 2019-06-10 17.09.52.png (127.7 KB, 468 views)

Last edited by daemonsgr; 13th June 2019 at 09:30 AM.
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Old 13th June 2019, 11:52 AM   #2
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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There's a lot that looks good about it, and also considering your comments on future plans.

First time I built this style I went with ports. Then as I focused on the low end and subs, I dropped the ports. Better results, I thought. It was nothing to just block them off, the rest of the design was unchanged.

Still, I wouldn't consider the box to be overly critical. It's mostly what you end up with after all of the things you do towards better bass rather than the precision of one item.
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Old 13th June 2019, 02:07 PM   #3
daemonsgr is offline daemonsgr  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenB View Post
Still, I wouldn't consider the box to be overly critical. It's mostly what you end up with after all of the things you do towards better bass rather than the precision of one item.
Can you elaborate the last part a bit more?
thanks
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Old 13th June 2019, 02:36 PM   #4
AllenB is offline AllenB  Australia
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I was talking about bass. Small variations in alignment aren't a big deal. In some cases they can be equalised.

Then you have room variations. If I would assume that you use multiple subs, these will vary your response somewhat. After this you might do a little EQ anyway.

What I have found is that blending with subs may be easier starting with a closed box. Having the option of blocking ports or not, is probably also a good thing.

It is not such a concern for your mains to only go down to 50-70Hz or so if you are planning to use subs. It is also good for efficiency to not need a woofer with too low a Fs.
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Old 13th June 2019, 04:37 PM   #5
daemonsgr is offline daemonsgr  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenB View Post
I was talking about bass. Small variations in alignment aren't a big deal. In some cases they can be equalised.

Then you have room variations. If I would assume that you use multiple subs, these will vary your response somewhat. After this you might do a little EQ anyway.

What I have found is that blending with subs may be easier starting with a closed box. Having the option of blocking ports or not, is probably also a good thing.

It is not such a concern for your mains to only go down to 50-70Hz or so if you are planning to use subs. It is also good for efficiency to not need a woofer with too low a Fs.
At the moment Im not planning a sub at all. Only two channels, so the low end needs to be ok.
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Old 14th June 2019, 03:04 AM   #6
Brett is offline Brett
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daemonsgr View Post
for the 2226h I started with the recommendation below to test in WinISD and I recreated 4Pi in CAD so I can measure the volume and compare with the published response graphs. (cab in the sims is C4/SC4)
Get the 2226 datasheet from JBL (first search response) and you'll find they tune to 40Hz in 140L net.

If you're going active then you can do 6th order ported in about 40L. I've used this alignment in my home and PA units and it's excellent. Will post more if you're interested next week.

I've owned lots of 2225/6 units and they're great.
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Old 14th June 2019, 09:04 AM   #7
daemonsgr is offline daemonsgr  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett View Post
Get the 2226 datasheet from JBL (first search response) and you'll find they tune to 40Hz in 140L net.

If you're going active then you can do 6th order ported in about 40L. I've used this alignment in my home and PA units and it's excellent. Will post more if you're interested next week.

I've owned lots of 2225/6 units and they're great.
1) I'd love to know more when you have time. Im not currently fixed to the 2226h if there are other alternatives.

2) The design I aim is something like the images I had in my first post, if possible. WAF approval is needed and a 6th order box is out of the question!!

3) Im aiming for a passive system. no active XO etc.

4) the 2226h simulations are with 38hz tuning similar to the 4Pi.

so, 2 channel hifi for music and 2 way. 15 LF and CD+horn HF.
Reviewing "Beyma designs from 2008/2009" there is a 15p80nd + CP755ti that looks good.

Anyone with experience from 15P80s? or maybe comparison?
thanks

Last edited by daemonsgr; 14th June 2019 at 09:07 AM.
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Old 15th June 2019, 04:13 AM   #8
1audiohack is offline 1audiohack  United States
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Hello dae;

JBL never used the 2226 in a domestic or studio monitor speaker, not even the basket motor assembly with another cone kit. Ever wonder why?

JBL has far better candidates for home especially for low power use.

From fairly inexpensive and obtainable the list goes:
2234 / 2235
2226-1
2216

The first two will tune in the low 20’s in 140 liters and require much less eq “force” to sound full and balanced.

The 2216’s are more expensive but are flat amazing. Climbing the JBL ladder further gets expensive.

I have 2226’s employed in several systems but none in the house.

Barry.
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Old 15th June 2019, 07:20 AM   #9
daemonsgr is offline daemonsgr  United Kingdom
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1audiohack View Post
Hello dae;

JBL never used the 2226 in a domestic or studio monitor speaker, not even the basket motor assembly with another cone kit. Ever wonder why?

JBL has far better candidates for home especially for low power use.

From fairly inexpensive and obtainable the list goes:
2234 / 2235
2226-1
2216

The first two will tune in the low 20’s in 140 liters and require much less eq “force” to sound full and balanced.

The 2216’s are more expensive but are flat amazing. Climbing the JBL ladder further gets expensive.

I have 2226’s employed in several systems but none in the house.

Barry.
Thank for the info. I didnt know the details.

Maybe focus on the 15P80* then? Not many builds in the forum but it seems good.
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Old 15th June 2019, 04:54 PM   #10
Qts is offline Qts
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What kind of crossover frequency are you planning? Good woofer may be worse midrange. I would use EQ to help low end.

Last edited by Qts; 15th June 2019 at 05:01 PM.
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