Yes, you can hear Phase differences !

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Well i could anyway ;)

This is a follow up to my previous thread about HEDD speakers, & their VST Phase Lineariser. Zero-Phase-Shift & Lineariser Soft & System

Today i was able to go a store where they sell HEDD speakers, & get a demo of the Type 07 pair. I had full control of the free HEDD VST plugin that Totally linearises the phase. The VST plugin was activated through a DAW.

I took along a USB stick with a selection of WAV & mp3 files to compare. I could instantly hear the difference in All of the modes that the plugin offers, when switching between them. And also by completely bypassing it as well.

And, yes All modes sounded better than without, & not in a subtle way either.

Which means, this is a must have solution, if you require accurate playback.

If you get the chance to demo for yourselves, i would strongly reccommend that you, asap !

What a revelation :)
 
Now, please demonstrate how the human ear, the cochlea, is capable of phase detection. After that, you will have also to demonstrate that the brain's auditory area is equipped to sense phase.

Mathematically, adding two phasors, always results in a single resultant phase. Conversely, any phasor can be split into two, and this can be done infinitely. This means, the ear or better the brain, has to decide when it should stop.
 
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May be possible. BUT, without blind testing, you can not rule out experimenter expectancy. Scientific method actually works for determining if there actually is a difference. Of course some think they are infallible and will never agree to a valid test...
Scores of times well documented in history people have deluded themselves in major ways. Quality testing is what has brought us up so far, so fast and not still believing myth and rumor.
 

ICG

Disabled Account
Joined 2007
Now, please demonstrate how the human ear, the cochlea, more precisely the organ of Corti, is capable of phase detection. After that, you will have also to demonstrate that the brain's auditory area is equipped to sense phase.

The ear is unable to detect the absolute phase. However, it is very sensitive to phase changes in certain frequency ranges.

On the other hand, as long as the speaker isn't developed properly, you can't 'fix' the phase anyway, the phase errors between 2 (or more) drivers, their dispersion and physical location (and their interferences) can't be corrected unless you're using a DSP and amp for each. That also means, while you can correct the overall phase but since the ear can't detect the absolute phase at all, it's just down to changing some parts to linearity in response. That can ofcourse help to hear details you've not heard from the speaker before but room equalization does the same. So if you want to know if that actually is the changed phase or the EQing, do not compare it with and without the plugin, compare the plugin to a room EQ setup. Once you've done that you'll realize there is not much difference and you can further not determine which one is actually 'correct'. That means, the plugin is only of use with the HEDD speakers. Yes, on their speakers it will likely improve the SQ very much. But so does a correct setup (which can be phase correct too with enough effort) with most other DSPs too. Without the HEDD speakers, the plugin does not provide any advantages.
 
Well people can say what they like, but unless you are lucky enough to try/hear for yourselves, you cannot say it doesn't work, or doesn't make a positive difference. Which i CLEARLY heard !

Sure, i know about what's been said in the past about not being able to hear phase differences, & the theories etc mentioned, but, as above.

The HEDD Lineariser(R) - Heinz Electrodynamic Designs = The graphs below CLEARLY show the results

When activating the HEDD Lineariser®, transients are reproduced in perfect accuracy and the spatial qualities are being increased. Acoustic recordings will impress with their natural and intriguing character YouTube

Obviously the VST plugin is designed specifically for the HEDD speakers :D

HEDD Audio Type 20 review HEDD Audio Type 20 review | MusicRadar
 

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Ah, this debate never ends (yea !).

Usually transients such as a rim shot or a wood block demonstates a difference.

But...........

If, and i say lightly if, someone can even perceive that, do they know what is "better" ?
And what is it worth to them ?

Dispersion patterns, cone breakups, distortion, cabinet edge reflections, let alone room acoustics usually swamp the priorities.

I enjoy 6db slopes (I've owned 2 pairs of thiels, model 4 and cs2) but my movie/music/volume levels arn't kind to them, nor is my large listening area and i am often 15' away necessitating at least a pair of 12's for the bass to get that far.
And a crossover 100-300hz has become annoying to me, seems like the bass (foundation) is just slugging away behind the music.
24db is a good compromise, 750hz (if the horn is good enough) or my current obsession of 1.2khz with a smaller horn.

The tools now are really getting there, even 24db slopes transient perfect.
 
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ICG

Disabled Account
Joined 2007
Ah, this debate never ends (yea !).

Usually transients such as a rim shot or a wood block demonstates a difference.

But...........

If, and i say lightly if, someone can even perceive that, do they know what is "better" ?
And what is it worth to them ?

Dispersion patterns, cone breakups, distortion, cabinet edge reflections, let alone room acoustics usually swamp the priorities.

That's exactly why the absolute phase is just the cherry on top. It's of no use if you are maximizing just one thing but neglect or take too many disadvantages in other areas. Yes, a 'correct' phase is a nice-to-have but the overall phase does not matter and the phase from driver-to-driver will be good anyway in a throughly developed speaker. If you want to improve the sound, start with placement and the room, not by buying 'better', more expensive drivers.
 
There’s no way I can tell exactly how much out of phase one driver to another but I can certainly tell when I mess with it and it’s out......now whether or it’s actually ‘in phase’ where I think it sounds best is also questionable!

DSP is coming soon to a theatre near me and I’m gonna make sure it involves phase measure/correction.

And like said above the soundstage and ‘air’ suffer when it’s out.....most of the time it’s lesser of the two evils switching +/- seeing which is best knowing neither is correct.
can only imagine what zero d is hearing, would certainly be nice to have it right all the time!

Then like ICG says getting everything else ‘right’ would probably be a lot easier.

Bob
 
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It's also worth bearing in mind the recording, as quoted "Acoustic recordings will impress with their natural and intriguing character". I find some of the most realistic sounding recordings I have are 1950's jazz recordings, minimal processing, often straight to three track tape for example. I also use single fullrange speakers, so no crossover, where phase and timing issues are most important.
 
True, phase on a full range driver is not constant (it shoots up).
But step response looks fairly good, point source, and less off axis dispersion usually leads to better imagining in an unperfect room.
Full range drivers are an easy way to get there.

A clean triangular step response (say a dunlavy) is really nice to listen to.

Too bad even thiel is starting to diverse from this...............

And yes, dynamic recordings are fun, regardless of phase.
 
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phase response and its linearisation with the HEDD Lineariser

Hello, I am Klaus Heinz , in charge of R&D at HEDD Audio. Having read the last posts I want to make some comments on our approach to linear phase monitors.

Speakers show irregularities in the frequency domain from different reasons, thus – inevitably – introducing changes in the phase response as well, a consequence of the Fourier or harmonic analysis. This is elementary physics and not in question. High and low pass properties of the drivers, filters, voice coils, even the low pass caused by the cabinet lead to nonlinearities (desired or undesired) in the frequency domain, thus altering phase response in a calculable way called Fourier Transform. So in the analog world one cannot have linear frequency and linear phase response at a time. There are mechanical approaches to improve the situation like staggered tweeters and coaxial drivers, they make the problem smaller by compensating the group delay, which however is the derivative of the device's phase characteristic only, not the phase response itself.

The situation changed when the DSP´s stepped in: they allowed to “store” the incoming signal long enough to delay the higher frequencies until the lower – and slower ones – had arrived, then sending the packages in a way that the time relations of the incoming signal are reinstalled and reproduced exactly, really tricky. So one thing is for sure: a linear phase response is more correct than an unfiltered response. Whether one can hear it ? Yes, no question, our customers and we in the lab have gone through the experience many times with reproducible results. Whereas the measurements of impulse related signals like square waves and Dirac (needle) impulses are improved drastically the audio effect is more subtle. However if you listen to linearized music for like 5 minutes and you switch back to normal you will be surprised how much sound and spatial imaging are improved. It works especially well with runtime oriented stereo (like all the old 50s and 60s recording are) where it delivers stunning results.

Last not least it has to be mentioned that the HEDD Lineariser® works in the frequency domain as well, due to the already rather linear frequency responses we have in our monitors this has a minor effect.

Greetings

Klaus
 

ICG

Disabled Account
Joined 2007
I also use single fullrange speakers, so no crossover, where phase and timing issues are most important.

The fullrange speaker shifts the phase with the frequency anyway though. You do not have a phase change because of the crossover (at least if you don't use any equalizing circuits) but the fact you're using a fullrange does not mean you get a constant phase and if your FR got a whizzer, it may even have drastic phase changes at the breakup of the cone, the 'broken up' part of the cone to the whizzer and then again at the beakup at the whizzer too. You can see the result of the phase differences at the (often) jagged response, that's nothing else but the result of phase differences which add to peaks and subtract to dips. That does not make your FR speaker bad but just the fact you are using a FR speaker does not mean you get a linear phase at all!
 
There are mechanical approaches to improve the situation like staggered tweeters and coaxial drivers, they make the problem smaller by compensating the group delay, which however is the derivative of the device's phase characteristic only, not the phase response itself...

However if you listen to linearized music for like 5 minutes and you switch back to normal you will be surprised how much sound and spatial imaging are improved. It works especially well with runtime oriented stereo (like all the old 50s and 60s recording are) where it delivers stunning results.


YES. These old recordings, with acoustic instruments and "natural" voices (without Autotune, vade retro satana) sound very well in my tweaked and modded KEF Q100 5.25 coaxial speakers.
 
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Hello, I am Klaus Heinz , in charge of R&D at HEDD Audio. Having read the last posts I want to make some comments on our approach to linear phase monitors.

Speakers show irregularities in the frequency domain from different reasons, thus – inevitably – introducing changes in the phase response as well, a consequence of the Fourier or harmonic analysis. This is elementary physics and not in question. High and low pass properties of the drivers, filters, voice coils, even the low pass caused by the cabinet lead to nonlinearities (desired or undesired) in the frequency domain, thus altering phase response in a calculable way called Fourier Transform. So in the analog world one cannot have linear frequency and linear phase response at a time. There are mechanical approaches to improve the situation like staggered tweeters and coaxial drivers, they make the problem smaller by compensating the group delay, which however is the derivative of the device's phase characteristic only, not the phase response itself.

The situation changed when the DSP´s stepped in: they allowed to “store” the incoming signal long enough to delay the higher frequencies until the lower – and slower ones – had arrived, then sending the packages in a way that the time relations of the incoming signal are reinstalled and reproduced exactly, really tricky. So one thing is for sure: a linear phase response is more correct than an unfiltered response. Whether one can hear it ? Yes, no question, our customers and we in the lab have gone through the experience many times with reproducible results. Whereas the measurements of impulse related signals like square waves and Dirac (needle) impulses are improved drastically the audio effect is more subtle. However if you listen to linearized music for like 5 minutes and you switch back to normal you will be surprised how much sound and spatial imaging are improved. It works especially well with runtime oriented stereo (like all the old 50s and 60s recording are) where it delivers stunning results.

Last not least it has to be mentioned that the HEDD Lineariser® works in the frequency domain as well, due to the already rather linear frequency responses we have in our monitors this has a minor effect.

Greetings

Klaus

Just curious about your testing protocol. Who controlled the switching? Were the tests single blind, double blind, or something else? How much discussion was there ahead of time telling the subjects what they should expect hear?
 
A very good example of old recording. LIVE and acoustic instruments. Two micro? And.... VERY HIGH DR.

Now Playing + What are you listening to?

Ahmad Jamal - Ahmad's Blues (1959), CD, Chess 1994, Germany

An externally hosted image should be here but it was not working when we last tested it.


DR Peak RMS Duration Track
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
DR15 -0.10 dB -18.20 dB 4:06 01-Ahmad's Blues
DR14 -0.10 dB -16.46 dB 4:16 02-It Could Happen To You
DR17 -0.10 dB -20.56 dB 3:46 03-I Wish I Knew
DR15 0.00 dB -18.78 dB 7:40 04-Autumn Leaves
DR12 -0.91 dB -16.10 dB 4:16 05-Stompin' At The Savoy
DR16 -0.10 dB -19.51 dB 4:47 06-Cheek To Cheek
DR19 -0.10 dB -22.62 dB 3:26 07-The Girl Next Door
DR17 -0.10 dB -19.88 dB 3:52 08-Secret Love
DR15 -0.10 dB -17.92 dB 2:19 09-Squatty Roo
DR16 -0.50 dB -18.37 dB 4:02 10-Taboo
DR16 -0.10 dB -23.25 dB 3:18 11-Autumn In New York
DR17 -0.10 dB -19.43 dB 4:44 12-A Gal In Calico
DR17 -3.06 dB -24.40 dB 2:38 13-That's All
DR15 -0.10 dB -18.54 dB 3:40 14-Should I?
DR17 0.00 dB -20.67 dB 3:12 15-Seleritus
DR13 -0.90 dB -16.19 dB 5:07 16-Let's Fall In Love
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Number of tracks: 16
Official DR value: DR16


CD, 1994

Ahmad's Blues by Ahmad Jamal on Amazon Music - Amazon.com


Ahmad Jamal - Wikipedia


I wrote:

You can not believe that the recording is from 1959. You seem to be in the jazz club and they are playing for you!
 
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