Hello,
I use Energy RC-Mini's on little stands at my desk. Although I'm happy with them, I'm wondering if I can do better for <$300, or even <$200. I'm looking for small (4.5" driver + tweeter, or fullrange) They don't need to be flattering, just high level of accuracy. I have big waveguide speakers in my listening room and I'm hooked on detailed sound.
I'd like tight bass, but there doesn't have to be much of it. I'm not going to use a sub. The RC-Mini's manage to have a full sound without putting out much bass. I'll make the cabinets from BB and maybe some CLD (brace, panel). I have a miniDSP and multichannel receiver. I've been a long time lurker here, but I'm comfortable with building. I'll make the cabinets with a CNC mill.
Can it be done or should I stick with the speakers I'm using?
Thanks all
aiphex
I use Energy RC-Mini's on little stands at my desk. Although I'm happy with them, I'm wondering if I can do better for <$300, or even <$200. I'm looking for small (4.5" driver + tweeter, or fullrange) They don't need to be flattering, just high level of accuracy. I have big waveguide speakers in my listening room and I'm hooked on detailed sound.
I'd like tight bass, but there doesn't have to be much of it. I'm not going to use a sub. The RC-Mini's manage to have a full sound without putting out much bass. I'll make the cabinets from BB and maybe some CLD (brace, panel). I have a miniDSP and multichannel receiver. I've been a long time lurker here, but I'm comfortable with building. I'll make the cabinets with a CNC mill.
Can it be done or should I stick with the speakers I'm using?
Thanks all
aiphex
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I believe it should be possible to achieve a better SQ with a set of higher quality drivers in theory. Skilfully designed crossover is a must. If I were you, a Peerless 4" PPB midwoofer (31$) and a Morel cat 408 (78$) or similar. Fullrange unit is not a solution.
Before you do something along these lines, try optimizing your RC mini's by using mini dsp and some EQ.
Before you do something along these lines, try optimizing your RC mini's by using mini dsp and some EQ.
This is by far my favourite small budget mid-woofer: FaitalPRO | LF Loudspeakers | 5FE120
Works well in small boxes, has a reasonable extension (63Hz), very reasonable sensitivity and lots of headroom with regards to excursion and power handling. Almost laughingly cheap at £21 where I live.
Since you have miniDSP and access to a CNC machine I'd suggest a waveguide for the tweeter. Visaton make the imaginatively called WG148r (WaveGuide, 148mm ø, round) which is also very budget friendly. Then use the CNC to make an adapter to replace the tweeters face plate. For a tweeter you can't really go wrong with the Vifa/Tymphani/Peerless XT25BG60 and I've been told that nipply thing makes them particularly well suited for WGs.
Don't know where you are but if you are in the UK/Europe this might be your last opportunity to get a pair of these: Peerless D26NC-56-06 Tweeter - Willys-Hifi Ltd
Best tweeter Zaph ever measured/used...bar none.
Works well in small boxes, has a reasonable extension (63Hz), very reasonable sensitivity and lots of headroom with regards to excursion and power handling. Almost laughingly cheap at £21 where I live.
Since you have miniDSP and access to a CNC machine I'd suggest a waveguide for the tweeter. Visaton make the imaginatively called WG148r (WaveGuide, 148mm ø, round) which is also very budget friendly. Then use the CNC to make an adapter to replace the tweeters face plate. For a tweeter you can't really go wrong with the Vifa/Tymphani/Peerless XT25BG60 and I've been told that nipply thing makes them particularly well suited for WGs.
Don't know where you are but if you are in the UK/Europe this might be your last opportunity to get a pair of these: Peerless D26NC-56-06 Tweeter - Willys-Hifi Ltd
Best tweeter Zaph ever measured/used...bar none.
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I think you would be advised to consider a single driver full range for desktop because for such close listening it helps for the sound to come from a point source. There are many examples out there. Here's something I built:
Martello Fr88ex
Martello Fr88ex
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Yeah......I’d certainly go single driver fullrange at such close listening distance as there’s no crossover related phase issues and those are EASILY recognized at such close distances. The Dayton PS95 or RS100 would be an excellent choice. I use the latter on my home studio laptop editing desk and couldn’t be happier.
Peerless DA32TX00-08 1-1/4" Corundum Dome Tweeter
Very nicely designed tweeter with 1mm xmax and very smooth response/off axis roll off. It would be possible to cross around 1.2khz.
Very nicely designed tweeter with 1mm xmax and very smooth response/off axis roll off. It would be possible to cross around 1.2khz.
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Thanks for the replies. I've looked at each design and they are all nice. Your ideas have led me towards something like a Peerless NE123 and XT25. I like the Visaton waveguide idea, but it might be a bit too large for the design goal. I would love for someone to convince me of fullrange, because I have doubts about it.
Another part of my design goal with this is a feeling like I have a little reference mini monitor, with a high level of detail and transparency. Something Scan Speak-esque. I always thought my dream system would be all Scan Speak drivers, but then I found out about large waveguides and never looked back. Hence the peerless wood pulp driver, also interested in offerings from SB acoustics.
Keep the ideas coming.
aiphex
Another part of my design goal with this is a feeling like I have a little reference mini monitor, with a high level of detail and transparency. Something Scan Speak-esque. I always thought my dream system would be all Scan Speak drivers, but then I found out about large waveguides and never looked back. Hence the peerless wood pulp driver, also interested in offerings from SB acoustics.
Keep the ideas coming.
aiphex
Have you looked at Curt Campbell's Micro Statements? NE149 and a Fountek NeoCD 3.0 ribbon. 8.5" W X 12.5" H X 10" D. LINK.
Another very popular speaker is Paul Carmody's Speedsters (Tangband W4-1720 and Fountek NeoCD1.0 ribbon) which are even smaller (6" W X 10" H X 8.5 D). LINK.
I've heard several designs from both Curt and Paul and IMO they are both top notch DIY designers.
Another very popular speaker is Paul Carmody's Speedsters (Tangband W4-1720 and Fountek NeoCD1.0 ribbon) which are even smaller (6" W X 10" H X 8.5 D). LINK.
I've heard several designs from both Curt and Paul and IMO they are both top notch DIY designers.
Those look very nice but unfortunately the ribbon is out of my price range for a tweeter. Right now I think I've narrowed it down to:
Woofer
Peerless NE123
SB Acoustics SB12PFC
SB Acoustics SB12NRXF
Tweeter
Peerless D26
Peerless XT25
This should give an idea of what I'm going for. I'd really appreciate any input on these combos. Or on similar ones. 4" paper cone w/ small faceplate tweeters.
Thanks
aiphex
Woofer
Peerless NE123
SB Acoustics SB12PFC
SB Acoustics SB12NRXF
Tweeter
Peerless D26
Peerless XT25
This should give an idea of what I'm going for. I'd really appreciate any input on these combos. Or on similar ones. 4" paper cone w/ small faceplate tweeters.
Thanks
aiphex
Re Vifa D26
Zaph|Audio
If you scroll down a fair bit he describes a very easy way of rear-mounting the D26 with what effectively is a waveguide made with nothing more than a roundover bit and a router.
I'd still pick the Faital over Peerless or SB woofers but I would say that, wouldn't i?
PS: The little Faital has a Vas of 4.9L so it works well in tiny boxes, the same size you'd need for a 4".
I have mine in boxes no larger than the smaller ones ernperkins suggested.
Zaph|Audio
If you scroll down a fair bit he describes a very easy way of rear-mounting the D26 with what effectively is a waveguide made with nothing more than a roundover bit and a router.
I'd still pick the Faital over Peerless or SB woofers but I would say that, wouldn't i?
PS: The little Faital has a Vas of 4.9L so it works well in tiny boxes, the same size you'd need for a 4".
I have mine in boxes no larger than the smaller ones ernperkins suggested.
The round over waveguide looks like a nice touch. I was planning to use 1/2" BB to keep things small. But I might see about going 3/4" on the front. If I don't then I'll just use a truncated tweeter faceplate.
I'm all but sold on the Peerless NE123, it fits the visual aesthetic more than the FaitalPro, and it's frame is easier to work with. I have some 3" Faitals and I like the sound but don't like the frames.
I'm down to two tweeters. The Peerless D26 and Dayton RST28F. I would use the truncated frame for the Dayton if I don't make a round over waveguide. Can anyone suggestion how one tweeter might play nicer with the NE123? The Dayton is also twice the price of the D26, which I'm not crazy about.
Thanks
Shawn
I'm all but sold on the Peerless NE123, it fits the visual aesthetic more than the FaitalPro, and it's frame is easier to work with. I have some 3" Faitals and I like the sound but don't like the frames.
I'm down to two tweeters. The Peerless D26 and Dayton RST28F. I would use the truncated frame for the Dayton if I don't make a round over waveguide. Can anyone suggestion how one tweeter might play nicer with the NE123? The Dayton is also twice the price of the D26, which I'm not crazy about.
Thanks
Shawn
The Soprano kit I mentioned above uses the SB12NRX. (The SB12NRXF isn't recommended if you go ported. Should only be used for sealed according to SB Acoustics.)
If you go the kit route you'll get Jeff Bagby's XO design. Otherwise you're on your own for XO.
For starters, take a look at your design goals and make some assumptions and disqualifications based on that. You’ll be listening nearfield, and on axis so early reflections from things other than your desk can be eliminated.....therefore absolutely NO need for a waveguide loaded tweeter.
Your looking at low level listening so highly damped drivers that handle gobs of power aren’t what the doctor ordered. Dynamic range is critical to consider though and since you’re in the nearfield, dynamics will be more easily realized.
Another fact, and the reason so many of the multi way suggestions are strongly suggestive of a ‘well done crossover’.......and that’s phase related crossover issues. These are the number one failure of so many designs and the primary reason that such a strong following amongst the audiophile community of full range designs exist. You have to hear it for yourself to understand it.....point source full detail without phase induced lobes.
The ‘problems’ of single driver fullrange designs are poor off axis response.....of which you have no concern. Another drawback is the best fullrange drivers are light coned and not critically damped......so bass response is limited....of which you again have suggested to don’t hold as a design criteria.
So again, your design criteria are actually those most perfectly aligned with a fullrange solution. Here’s some other suggestions........a footprint is a footprint so start there......but remember again reflections.........keep those drivers as high off the desktop as possible and on axis with your seated ear height. Use the available vertical space for needed cabinet volume to produce adequate bass response.
You haven’t said if these are for critical monitoring for audio/video editing or for pure enjoyment......two VERY different things,......and as an engineer I can tell you that I would much prefer a not ruler flat response for the latter.....I enjoy a little boost in the 100hz range as well as a boost from 10k up for a sense or air.
In some respects this depends on the *type* of "detail" you are looking for.
As far as basic clarity: only if you go active (miniDSP). The drivers in the Energy are already going to be quite "clear" by virtue of the driver's membranes.
Now with respect to "detail" you can improve low-level detail and "space" vs. the Energy Loudspeakers - though this might actually be to the detriment of the above basic clarity.
I'd probably do an open-baffle (for the upper baffle portion) with the SB SB65WBAC25-4,
and lower on the baffle in a deep enclosure w/bass reflex and the MCM 55-5565.
Active (detailed amps) with miniDSP.
Note: both drivers were chosen for specific high-level objective performance..
Open-baffle + Bass Reflex similar to this picture:
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Mayhem,
Okay, I'll bite. I've got a couple FaitalPro 3fe25 that are sitting in the dash of an old car I'm not using. I just pulled one out, they've seen some wild temperatures in the year they've been in there, so I'm not sure how that's affected them but visually they look new, albeit a bit dusty.
I think I'll make little sealed satellites for them, and will make a couple LR 'subs' to accompany. I have a stash of 6.5" drivers so will use those in separate cabs that I'll tuck in behind or something.
Can you give me some suggestions on what to do? Form is equal to function on this project, so a ported golden ration box or the like are out of the picture. Sealed satellite cube with separate bass cabs tucked in behind are the best aesthetic I can think of right now.
Thanks
aiphex
Okay, I'll bite. I've got a couple FaitalPro 3fe25 that are sitting in the dash of an old car I'm not using. I just pulled one out, they've seen some wild temperatures in the year they've been in there, so I'm not sure how that's affected them but visually they look new, albeit a bit dusty.
I think I'll make little sealed satellites for them, and will make a couple LR 'subs' to accompany. I have a stash of 6.5" drivers so will use those in separate cabs that I'll tuck in behind or something.
Can you give me some suggestions on what to do? Form is equal to function on this project, so a ported golden ration box or the like are out of the picture. Sealed satellite cube with separate bass cabs tucked in behind are the best aesthetic I can think of right now.
Thanks
aiphex
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+1 for Jeff Bagby's Soprano. Copy off the smart kids!
Mount the SB26STCN-04 SB Acoustics tweeter as close as possible to the SB Acoustics SB12NRX midwoofer.... best approximation to a point source.
Use your router with a modest radius quarter-round cutter to reduce edge diffraction distortion. No router? Cut a small bevel on the L+top+R cabinet edges. You can build a 2x thick front baffle to achieve this construction... just cut the inside baffle board to allow the midbass cone to exhaust.
Mount the SB26STCN-04 SB Acoustics tweeter as close as possible to the SB Acoustics SB12NRX midwoofer.... best approximation to a point source.
Use your router with a modest radius quarter-round cutter to reduce edge diffraction distortion. No router? Cut a small bevel on the L+top+R cabinet edges. You can build a 2x thick front baffle to achieve this construction... just cut the inside baffle board to allow the midbass cone to exhaust.
Correction: MCM 55-5655:
https://www.newark.com/mcm-audio-select/55-5655/4-die-cast-woofer-8-ohm-rubber/dp/95Y2933
Pluvia 7 or Alpair 7.3, probably the A7msMark Audio all fit into 5 to 13 litre, smaller A5.2 or FF85wk fit into 2-3.5 litre. The original Pluvia 7 can go pretty low, it embarasses some woofers.
No XO and no need to worry about being far enuff away for 2 drivers to integrate.
For the same budget you can get a pair of really good drivers, or tweeters, woofers and XOs. Since you are looking for detail, that is often what a more expensive driver brings.
The new Pluvia 7HD is supposedly the guts of an A7.3 in th enew Pluvia basket… if so it should be a killer. Looks like Madisound doesn’t hav ethese yet, but they do have the original. Markaudio Alpair-7 Gold Cone 4" Full Range
This is a quartet of the milliSize box we do, here with FE127.
dave
No XO and no need to worry about being far enuff away for 2 drivers to integrate.
For the same budget you can get a pair of really good drivers, or tweeters, woofers and XOs. Since you are looking for detail, that is often what a more expensive driver brings.
The new Pluvia 7HD is supposedly the guts of an A7.3 in th enew Pluvia basket… if so it should be a killer. Looks like Madisound doesn’t hav ethese yet, but they do have the original. Markaudio Alpair-7 Gold Cone 4" Full Range
This is a quartet of the milliSize box we do, here with FE127.
dave
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