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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

A 4-way Horn speaker
A 4-way Horn speaker
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Old 13th May 2019, 04:27 PM   #31
Mr BA is offline Mr BA  England
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Originally Posted by hallcon83 View Post
Hi all, I really appreciate everyone that's taking part in the discussion. - Mr. BA - your Horn system is looking GREAT - !!!!! I'm slightly jealous - your already so far ahead of me! - It's interesting that in most areas , preamplifiers, amplifiers - even regular speakers ( non-horns) -- it seems like when people finish their designs most of the time here they share the designs with the rest of the diyaudio crowd , but when people finish horn speakers they seldom share their design specs - ( dimensions , crossovers or the rest ) - that someone would need to build the same design.... seems kind of strange ....... Maybe because it can take so long or take so much effort they don't want copy's - - -
- it sure be great if more people did!
- I found some interesting information that may help explain things a little more. On Romy's website they got into a light conversation - or debate of the merits of Tune's Anima horn system - and after talking over the different problems they thought it might have , the designer of the Anima horn system Manolis Proestakis actually joined the conversation. I'll post the link, he shared some interesting details on the horns - here is the link- ![/url]
Thanks for your comments, but it's taken me ~ 4 years to get here. Unfortunately due to just having had some surgery, I can't work on finishing this one or building the second one for at least the next 6 weeks - not allowed to lift, carry things, etc.

As for sharing information, I've found people to be helpful when I've asked, but you're correct in that people don't volunteer detail design information, maybe they think knowledge is power & don't want to share . I've experienced this in work environment as well.

I had seen Romy link previously and used some of the information to change to 4 way as opposed to 3 way Anima. Feel free to ask any further questions.
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Old 13th May 2019, 04:59 PM   #32
Mr BA is offline Mr BA  England
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Originally Posted by Rewind View Post
Mr BA, how is the sound quality from the midbass when you face it vertical/downwards compared to horizontal?
Are you at all concerned about time alignment? Due to space constraints I wish to do it with an analog circuit, but having trouble finding any.
I don't know the difference in sound quality between horizontal or vertical. Due to space constraints, I can't fire it horizontally, so don't want to potentially upset myself by trying it that way

The three horizontal drivers are physically time aligned and there is the facility within Behringer DCX2496 to time delay drivers. Behringer is a temporary device which I originally planned to use to derive crossover points and slopes. But after building the horns & measuring them (admittedly this was in the middle of the room where it currently resides), there is too much of an overlap between the drivers and so I need steeper slopes (currently playing LR24) which would make an analogue circuit outside of my ability to make.

I've seen crossovers such as Pioneer SF700, these don't offer time delay.

I was advised that the Behringer unit had limitations as far as ultimate sound performance but been pleasantly surprised, especially as it was 135 second hand. In addition, I've been reading about PC software to allow room correction + linear phase crossover filters and would like to explore PC sound cards, etc. further that can deal with 4 drivers / side and perhaps use JRiver DSP + RePhase.
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Old 13th May 2019, 05:15 PM   #33
Mr BA is offline Mr BA  England
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Well, I can share what I use: Lab12 Sealed 34L subwoofer 30Hz-80Hz, ported JBL K140 from 80-440Hz, Yamaha Ja6681B compression driver from 440Hz to 2000Hz in an JMLC IWATA 220Hz. RAAL in a big wooden horn from 2000Hz-20kHz. I will add a second channel as soon as I am done sculpting the horn, from 1400Hz - maybe 3000Hz, to use a smaller horn for RAAL. We will see what I end up preferring. I also have built two midbass horns with JBL 2220A (90-440Hz) that is waiting in the stable for approval from the Mrs.

For the two upper horns I currently use a Firstwatt F5 with a 2-way passive 2nd order crossover. I like it better than my Chinese 2A3 5 watt tube amp. Actually the 5 watt tube amp sound better with the 15" JBL drivers, but the JBL can play the 50Hz mains hum very vividly, something I will need to address eventually, probably with a Firstwatt F6.
I use a minidsp 4x10HD to divide the sub and the midwoofer and the two horns. I am looking to replace the minidsp with an LXmini inspired analog active crossover, but I am not sure it is suitable for a 3-way or a 4-way.

The Fane 8M is not in use, just a failed experminent. I though I needed something between the K140 and the horn, but the aluminum dust cap extends it well above 440Hz.
Hi, nice woodworking skills.
What benefit / differences do you think an analogue crossover will give you over the minidsp 4x10HD unit? I'm not familiar with LXmini unit.
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Old 14th May 2019, 07:33 PM   #34
hallcon83 is offline hallcon83  United States
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A 4-way Horn speaker
Hi Rewind, thank you for sharing your horn build! Very Nice horns! I can't believe you carved those horns freehand - with an ax, that's amazing. I hope that your Mrs. lets your mid-Bass horns join the fun -
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Old 14th May 2019, 08:10 PM   #35
hallcon83 is offline hallcon83  United States
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A 4-way Horn speaker
Hi Barry, my bad , I read your post very quickly yesterday and didn't see your name -
- Also after taking some more time to look more closely at your pictures and study your horns , they are even more awesome than i first thought !!!
- I do have some questions , i can't make my brain work today - I couldn't figure out from your post - what are " notional " crossovers ?
- I was also wondering what are the drivers you are using? - (besides the Fane Crescendo 15B in the large vertical horn). Thank you, Dean
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Old 15th May 2019, 07:27 PM   #36
Mr BA is offline Mr BA  England
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hallcon83 View Post
Hi Barry, my bad , I read your post very quickly yesterday and didn't see your name -
- Also after taking some more time to look more closely at your pictures and study your horns , they are even more awesome than i first thought !!!
- I do have some questions , i can't make my brain work today - I couldn't figure out from your post - what are " notional " crossovers ?
- I was also wondering what are the drivers you are using? - (besides the Fane Crescendo 15B in the large vertical horn). Thank you, Dean
Hi Dean, no worries, thanks for the kind words.
By "notional" crossover I mean not set in stone. Once the speaker is installed in the room corner & re-measured the crossover points and slopes may change.
Drivers - Tweeter - JBL 2405 compression driver; Fostex D232 compression driver into black horn from Stereolab (Germany), Audax PR170 paper cone driver into white horn.
All of the wood is Birch plywood.
The vertical horn is made of 4mm laminated & formed pieces. I decided with my limited woodworking skills it was easier to laminate and bend pieces into the 4 sides and screw them together as opposed to having a stepped horn, similar to Tune Anima. The driver chamber is made of layers of 1" ply with circular holes for the drive chamber.
Rgds Barry
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Old 15th May 2019, 08:42 PM   #37
Rewind is offline Rewind  Sweden
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A 4-way Horn speaker
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Originally Posted by Mr BA View Post
Hi, nice woodworking skills.
What benefit / differences do you think an analogue crossover will give you over the minidsp 4x10HD unit? I'm not familiar with LXmini unit.
Well, first of all, I can use a better DAC than what is inside the Minidsp. The Minidsp is handy when designing crossover but should not be a permanent solution. The DSP filters decreases the resolution of the sound, and the power supply is noisy.
With an analog active crossover I could also use no Dac at all, meaning vinyl or tape, without having to chop up the analog sound to digital and then try to to unchop it into analog.
The LXmini crossover is getting great reviews from minidsp owners and designed by Nelson pass it has to be at least as good as a B1, which is good enough for me. I am currently building the Korg Nutube version of the B1 to add some tube-esque 2nd harmonics.
The only problem with the LXmini is that I have to learn how to redesign it myself to allow for so many channels. Nelson Pass is selling finished active analog crossovers but they are expensive and I would have to buy several of them and end up spending a years salary, which I would happily do, but not everyone at home would agree.

The obvious solution would be to use a passive crossover like in any other commercial speaker. I tried one that covers the midwoofer, midhorn and tweeter, and even with a 1st order crossovers I could hear the effect of the coil on woofer and the large value (uF) capacitors on the midhorn. Imagine a 2nd or 4th order crossover and how all those components would effect sound quality. For tweeters, the passive crossover components become smaller and (in my head) more like a straight wire rather than gigantic rolls of foil like in a large capacitor. Therefore I am using passive crossovers and an autotransformer on the compression driver and the Raal tweeter to save on amps for the moment. The Raal in a horn is very sensitive but I still have to pad the compression driver with -8dB with the autotransformer.
Also, power requirements from a woofer is very different from a compression driver so when padding down the horns with an L-pad or an autotransformer, I would loose a lot of signal, and you should always go for the strongest signal from the source. And, yes, I am temporarily padding the compression driver to fit with the Raal, but not as much as I would with a woofer. In short, you can make a passive crossover work in a horn speaker, but you may end up feeling like an idiot.

The only solution for me is a juiced up LXmini that is not invented yet.

Last edited by Rewind; 15th May 2019 at 08:50 PM.
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Old 15th May 2019, 08:59 PM   #38
Rewind is offline Rewind  Sweden
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A 4-way Horn speaker
Btw, here is my new JMLC Iwata 600 Hz horn. Some assembly required...
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Old 16th May 2019, 05:48 PM   #39
Mr BA is offline Mr BA  England
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Originally Posted by Rewind View Post
Well, first of all, I can use a better DAC than what is inside the Minidsp. The Minidsp is handy when designing crossover but should not be a permanent solution. The DSP filters decreases the resolution of the sound, and the power supply is noisy.

The only solution for me is a juiced up LXmini that is not invented yet.
Thanks for the explanation - you're using minidsp the same as I am Behringer.

If you don't mind keep me updated with your crossover travels. Originally, I was going to use a Nadja board, but need to look around for other options.

I'm a mechanical engineer, so my electric knowledge is limited.
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Old 16th May 2019, 05:50 PM   #40
Mr BA is offline Mr BA  England
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Thanks for the photo of the start of your Iwata horn, if possible can you post updates ?
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