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Multi-Way Conventional loudspeakers with crossovers

A 4-way Horn speaker
A 4-way Horn speaker
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Old 10th May 2019, 07:59 PM   #11
Rewind is offline Rewind  Sweden
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A 4-way Horn speaker
A gentle J-shaped bend can be achieved without being too destructive above 200 Hz. My horn for a compression driver that is crossed from 440Hz would have been 100 cm deep including the driver if I didn't bend it a little. The same same can be done for midwoofer horns. Question is where you want it to bend. Actually, the question is if you want it to even be a horn. I built both a JBL 2220H horn and a ported cabinet for JBL 2225H and liked the ported version better than the horn. A combination was even better, but it had a rather low WAF.
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Old 11th May 2019, 01:08 AM   #12
AllenB is online now AllenB  Australia
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Originally Posted by cspieker View Post
to not fold a front loaded horn path below about 200hz.
The techniques for folding at lower frequencies also conflict with how to fold at higher frequencies, leading to reflection and resonance.
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Old 11th May 2019, 02:58 AM   #13
hallcon83 is offline hallcon83  United States
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A 4-way Horn speaker
I'm a little out of my depth here and may not understand what you are saying so if i'm wrong please don't be offended - - but the Volti Vittora Horn's Bass horn is a folded horn that runs from 400hz to 50hz and is a wonderful sounding horn - it has many rave reviews and I just spent two days listening to it and love the horn system . The Living Voice Vox Olympian Horn system uses a folded horn from 300hz to 70hz , and it is considered one of the best commercial horn systems in the world. -- -- Best Regards, Dean
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Old 11th May 2019, 04:03 AM   #14
AllenB is online now AllenB  Australia
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It can be done, just carefully. The Volti looks like a bifurcated J horn, which as Rewind has said, can be a less harmful compromise.

I'll try explaining the resonance from my first post (assume the floor openings are equal in area to the cross section of the lower part of the horn, so there is no restriction at the exit).

The horn holds pressure, being a narrow duct. When it reaches the exit and the vast openness of the room, it dissipates quickly creating a relative vacuum at the mouth. This travels back up the horn and interferes with the signal from the speaker. This can cause peaks and nulls in the response at multiples of the lengths involved.
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Old 11th May 2019, 08:41 AM   #15
hallcon83 is offline hallcon83  United States
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A 4-way Horn speaker
Hi , thanks Allen for the explanation , I understand now - not sure of how they solved the problem .... so I sent the question off to the designer of the Anima Horn - hopefully he or someone else here can explain how they solved the problem...
- the Volti Vittora Bass horn is actually a W Bin , built in a similar way to the Klipsch LaScala Horn, but about twice the volume of the La Scala and much better built - many layers of 1/4 inch Baltic Birch Plywood are laminated with a two part permanent glue till it is an inch thick , and then placed over a curved form and vacuum bagged to the shape of the form to get the very strong curved shape he wanted.
The design for the w-Bin was farmed out to someone in Europe I believe -- then many different throat area designs were tried out of chip board till the over all horn designer Greg Roberts was happy with the sound he was getting from the new W-horn.
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Old 11th May 2019, 11:59 AM   #16
cspieker is offline cspieker  United States
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It may be my fault that I put us down a rabbit hole that may not be the most relevant to your question. If a carefully folded horn can sound good up to 400hz, that doesn't mean that it will be ideal if pointed at the floor. I'm guessing it isn't ideal.

Also as I mentioned, my 2 way loses directivity around 700hz, which is a compromise. The higher you cross to that downward facing horn the higher you will be losing directivity, which is a big reason for having such a complex system in the first place.

Also, right where you cross over, your dispersion is going to go from narrow on the front facing midrange
horn to 360 degrees on the down facing horn. If that happens at bass frequencies where the dispersion is 360 anyway (because that's how bass acts), then its fine, but at 400hz, that sudden change in directivity will not be ideal. I wish it were easy for me to flip my woofer section somehow to down firing. It would be a fun experiment to hear for myself just how much of a compromise it would be. I know it would require a level boost for the frequencies near the crossover, which would definitely alter the power response (the total sound at the listening position including both the direct from the driver and the muddier sound from the room reflections).

At any rate, horns are a blast. I'm glad you're starting down the road to building some. Sorting out these details is a very good learning experience for all of us. Craig
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Old 11th May 2019, 01:01 PM   #17
AllenB is online now AllenB  Australia
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to flip my woofer section somehow to down firing.
It's curious that there was recently a 'slot loaded' woofer trend here. Not convinced, I took a pair of 15" woofers in 3cu' boxes face down on the floor, sides facing forward, tops touching, and propped the fronts up on bricks (at the front only). There was a certain je ne sais quoi, very appealing, but there are so many possible explanations that I don't want to guess.

By the way, these drivers were closed box suitable, definitely not horn material. Crossed at 200Hz.

Last edited by AllenB; 11th May 2019 at 01:04 PM.
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Old 11th May 2019, 06:23 PM   #18
cspieker is offline cspieker  United States
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That's very interesting. There is a bit of difference between 200 and 400 hz though and that wedge shaped opening facing forward is much different too than purely downfiring from a directivity perspective. Still interesting though.
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Old 11th May 2019, 07:11 PM   #19
Rewind is offline Rewind  Sweden
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A 4-way Horn speaker
I had a listen to this system again today. BASSHORN XD - Avantgarde Acoustic Hornloudspeaker
TRIO XD - Avantgarde Acoustic Hornloudspeaker

Previously I found the basshorn a bit boomy, but today I asked them to increase the volume and it is just the lack of lower midbass from the Avantgarde Trio. The sound from the basshorn is crisper than a regular subwoofer, but not much detail is left after it has been folded several meters. So it behaves just like a regular subwoofer, with not much usable sound above 80-100Hz, just slightly more snappier och crisper, but maybe also muddled from having such a long folded horn. Someone can probably explain why, better than me.
The Trio itself is fine, I just prefer my version which can produce a full midbass without the help of a subwoofer/basshorn, crossed a little too high.
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Last edited by Rewind; 11th May 2019 at 07:29 PM.
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Old 11th May 2019, 09:01 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rewind View Post
I had a listen to this system again today. BASSHORN XD - Avantgarde Acoustic Hornloudspeaker
TRIO XD - Avantgarde Acoustic Hornloudspeaker

Previously I found the basshorn a bit boomy, but today I asked them to increase the volume and it is just the lack of lower midbass from the Avantgarde Trio. The sound from the basshorn is crisper than a regular subwoofer, but not much detail is left after it has been folded several meters. So it behaves just like a regular subwoofer, with not much usable sound above 80-100Hz, just slightly more snappier och crisper, but maybe also muddled from having such a long folded horn. Someone can probably explain why, better than me.
The Trio itself is fine, I just prefer my version which can produce a full midbass without the help of a subwoofer/basshorn, crossed a little too high.
This is a cafe? where is it?
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